Quote: Dre
how good will Dion Waiters be at the next level?
Alex Kennedy
I think Dion Waiters could become a very good player in the NBA. I spent some time with Waiters at Impact Basketball in Las Vegas. He was by far the best prospect in the gym and every player wanted to be on his team when they played pick-up games. He’s a very good scorer and he can play both guard positions. The other prospects in Vegas raved about him. One fellow prospect from a big college program told me, “Dion is the best player I’ve ever played against.” Waiters has a lot of potential and there’s a reason so many executives fell in love with him throughout this process.
Like the sound of that
Streak23 All-American Posts: 9169 Registered: Feb 2008
Posted June 30th, 2012 04:09 PM IPDion's patented move:
Ron Mexico NOSF Insider
Posts: 5957 Registered: Sep 2007
Posted June 30th, 2012 05:37 PM IPfor him to be really successful in Cleveland will have to be able to play off of Kyrie...learn to play without the ball in his hands all the time. your at the end of the shot clock and Kyrie has the ball, breaks down his man and kicks it out for a jumper as the defense collapses. I know in that situation I would feel a lot more comfortable with Barnes on the receiving end then Waiters. that is the kind of stuff he will have to become deadly ate because Kyrie is the man on the Cavs and has to have the ball.I think we found Kyrie Irving
Streak23 All-American Posts: 9169 Registered: Feb 2008
Posted June 30th, 2012 05:56 PM IPRon, that's not exactly the case...
Byron Scott uses the Princeton offense and loves to have two guards who are able to play with the ball.
Take last year for example, Kyrie was obviously the PG and is a budding elite one, however, he played off the ball quite a bit as well. There were times where he'd be playing off of Ramon Sessions, Ben Uzoh, and Lester Hudson.
Kyrie's ability to shoot or catch and penetrate is exceptional.
To your point regarding Barnes, he likely would only have been successful playing off of Kyrie. His biggest weakness was creating his own separation and driving to the rim. Do you want Kyrie to have ALL the pressure of creating for everyone? The offense will be at it's best with MULTIPLE creators.
Look around the league and tell me how many 2 guards don't have the ball in their hands? Look at OKC... They have 3 guys who all utilize their ability to handle the ball.
Also, Waiters was a 36% 3 point shooter last season... Barnes was a 35% 3 point shooter.
That entire argument is fallacy. No offense to you, of course, Ron..
Ron Mexico NOSF Insider
Posts: 5957 Registered: Sep 2007
Posted July 1st, 2012 01:04 PM IPthat is all fine and good with 12 on the shot clock but with the clock at 5 Kyrie has to have the ball, the princeton offense goes out the window, and the other players on the floor have to be able to catch and shoot. Harrison Barnes is a guy right now who can excel at catch and shoot...Waiters at this point is not. everything Waiters did in college was off the dribble. I am not saying he can't do it but he certainly has to learn how to play off the ball betterI think we found Kyrie Irving
theAteam All-Galaxy Posts: 26334 Registered: May 2007
Quote: Maverick12 wrote:
We've said it all season, the roster is void of NBA players. So what do they do but trade up and give away 2 more guys that would've helped the rotation. And for what? A 7 footer that will never start on a championship caliber team. He has lottery/starter size, but no where near the skill to match. There is about zero room for growth in his game. He played on a superb college team and showed no skills outside of making layups, a good baby hook, and running fast. At 24 and without giving up picks I would have been fine with this pick, but not at all in this scenario.
You realize that having a big man who can run the floor is someone who has the potential to thrive off of playing with a guy like Kyrie, right?
Also, don't underestimate the importance of a center being able to score around the rim. Who cares if it comes on a layup or a hook?
Zeller became the best center on our roster the second this trade was official. Assuming he gets the minutes, I'd be willing to bet he puts up better numbers than AV has ever put up as a pro.
Quote: JackHammer wrote:
The Cavs GM relies on Hollinger's analysis? Umm ok. What do you have to back that statement up?
no kidding.Take a nap at the ball game, catching up on some Z's. Buy me a five hour energy, take a nap with Hernandez and Ken Griffey. Snooze, snooze, snooze 'cause it's boring...if I wake up it is a shame. For it's 3, 4, 5 hours long at the old ball game.
www.eDraft.com
theAteam All-Galaxy Posts: 26334 Registered: May 2007
Posted July 1st, 2012 06:18 PM IPI think the Cavs hit a HOMERUN with this draft. We'll see how it plays out.
Funny story though:
My manager on draft night is a huge Phoenix fan, so naturally the draft was on all the TVs there. All he kept telling me leading up to the draft was that PHX was guaranteed to draft a stud, but wouldn't tell me who (makes since after hearing PHX is the team who most believe made Waiters the promise). When CLE took Waiters at 4, he came running up to me flipping out about how Waiters was a lock to come to PHX, etc. etc. It was hilarious.
When PHX eventually drafted Marshall, I couldn't help myself. I went up to him and said, "Hey, at least you guys drafted your PG to replace Nash when he signs with someone else in a few days." rofl!Take a nap at the ball game, catching up on some Z's. Buy me a five hour energy, take a nap with Hernandez and Ken Griffey. Snooze, snooze, snooze 'cause it's boring...if I wake up it is a shame. For it's 3, 4, 5 hours long at the old ball game.
www.eDraft.com
Ron Mexico NOSF Insider
Posts: 5957 Registered: Sep 2007
Posted July 2nd, 2012 10:37 AM IPI hope the Cavs hit a homerun. I am not one of the Cavs fans or even some media members who seemed like they were going to jump off a bridge because the Cavs drafted Waiters but I am also not going to fall right in line and act like this is the greatest pick in the world. I look forward to seeing the kid play and I hope he is everything Byron Scott and Jim Boeheim believe he can be. still I don't believe he was the 4th best player in this draft for the short term or the long term. I don't believe he was even the 2nd best player at his position in this draft after Beal. I don't believe he was the guy the Cavs were targeting all along or else they would have had no reason to talk to the bobcats about moving up to number 2.
I believe Dion Waiters is going to be a good scorer in this league but don't know that he will ever be versatile enough to be a long term answer as the starting 2 guard. I think when it is all said and done his best role will be a combo guard type off the bench who can play minutes with Kyrie or even spell him for a few minutes. he will have good value to the team but not sure he was the best choice at number 4.
the more I think about the Zeller pick the more I really like it. he may not have incredible upside but I think he is a guy who if healthy can play in the NBA for a long time. I am glad the Cavs were agressive and went up to get someone they wanted. how many years did we hear the Cavs want to move up or buy picks and they just sat back and ended up with guys like Christian Eyenga or Shannon Brown? I think we found Kyrie Irving
Underdog All-Region
Posts: 769 Registered: Dec 2007
Posted July 7th, 2012 10:35 PM IPRe: Cavs using advanced stats or Hollinger type analysis -
Quote:
JackHammer wrote:
The Cavs GM relies on Hollinger's analysis? Umm ok. What do you have to back that statement up?
theAteam wrote:
no kidding.
Why Dion Waiters Was the Correct Choice for the Cleveland Cavaliers (By Benjamin Flack (Analyst) on July 6, 2012)
The "eyeball" study, along with the use of advanced stats put Waiters at the top of the Cavs' draft board, along with Michael Kidd-Gilchrist and—according to Windhorst—ahead of Bradley Beal and Harrison Barnes.
Personally I'm always intrigued by statistics and the way that the game can be broken down to numbers.
I remember hearing last year that the Cavs used these advanced stats to decide to select Tristin Thompson ahead of where he was "projected" to go.
In a 2011 column by John Hollinger of ESPN, he similarly had Thompson rated as the best big man in the draft, ahead of Derrick Williams and ninth of all big men since 2002. Thompson landed at No. 3 on Hollinger's big board (ahead of Jonas Valanciunas, for all the skeptics).
(If you need convincing about Hollinger's work, he had Kyrie Irving as the highest-rated player in the draft and the only sure thing. Irving was, in fact, the second-highest-rated point guard since 2002, just a shade under Chris Paul. Hollinger's work is very highly respected.)
When evaluating the 2012 draft, Hollinger slated Waiters at No. 4 on his big board after the rater showed him to be the best perimeter player in the draft, well ahead of Beal, Barnes, Jeremy Lamb and Austin Rivers. Hollinger writes that "Waiters projects as the best small wing since Dwayne Wade."
Only nine other wing players since 2002 have rated in the elite level with Waiters (along with Kidd-Gilchrist from this year).
Five of those players have played All-Stars, and there's still a chance for four that have not, two of which obviously have yet to play in the NBA. . . .
PER (player efficiency rating) is best stat to measure just how good a player is. PER, from the brilliant mind of Hollinger, is highly regarded around the league. One look at the 2012 NBA rankings, in which LeBron James was the run-away leader, proves its accuracy.
The guys at DraftExpress.com did their own PER evaluation of each player. This is how they stacked up:
Posted July 7th, 2012 10:47 PM IPMore from the same article . . .
The Cavs are a team that places a lot of stock and value in the advanced metrics such as I have laid out here. It's why they drafted Tristan Thompson last year and was a contributing factor for sure in the selection of Waiters.
Chad Ford talked about this specifically with regards to the Cavs when he was on The B.S. Report with Bill Simmons a week ago. (The whole thing is great, though a little dated already, but if you go to the 1:13:00 mark you'll hear this discussion.)
Ford made the comparison using numbers analysis combined with visual scouting of Waiters to Dwyane Wade, remarking that when you put in the work, the result is that the pick is a lot easier to make.
Ford also had the following to say about the Cavs pick:
Waiters is the most dynamic scorer in the draft -- his ability to get to the basket is truly special -- and a handful of GMs thought that after Davis, MKG and Beal, he was the guy in this draft with the most star potential. He has NBA skill and, together with Kyrie Irving, should create a dynamic backcourt in Cleveland. Some will say taking Waiters at No. 4 was a bold pick, but I think it was a smart one with both MKG and Beal off the board. People said the same thing a few years ago when the Thunder took both Russell Westbrook and James Harden higher than expected.I feel much better now that I've given up all hope.
Quote: Underdog wrote:
Re: Cavs using advanced stats or Hollinger type analysis -
Why Dion Waiters Was the Correct Choice for the Cleveland Cavaliers (By Benjamin Flack (Analyst) on July 6, 2012)
The "eyeball" study, along with the use of advanced stats put Waiters at the top of the Cavs' draft board, along with Michael Kidd-Gilchrist and—according to Windhorst—ahead of Bradley Beal and Harrison Barnes.
Personally I'm always intrigued by statistics and the way that the game can be broken down to numbers.
I remember hearing last year that the Cavs used these advanced stats to decide to select Tristin Thompson ahead of where he was "projected" to go.
In a 2011 column by John Hollinger of ESPN, he similarly had Thompson rated as the best big man in the draft, ahead of Derrick Williams and ninth of all big men since 2002. Thompson landed at No. 3 on Hollinger's big board (ahead of Jonas Valanciunas, for all the skeptics).
(If you need convincing about Hollinger's work, he had Kyrie Irving as the highest-rated player in the draft and the only sure thing. Irving was, in fact, the second-highest-rated point guard since 2002, just a shade under Chris Paul. Hollinger's work is very highly respected.)
When evaluating the 2012 draft, Hollinger slated Waiters at No. 4 on his big board after the rater showed him to be the best perimeter player in the draft, well ahead of Beal, Barnes, Jeremy Lamb and Austin Rivers. Hollinger writes that "Waiters projects as the best small wing since Dwayne Wade."
Only nine other wing players since 2002 have rated in the elite level with Waiters (along with Kidd-Gilchrist from this year).
Five of those players have played All-Stars, and there's still a chance for four that have not, two of which obviously have yet to play in the NBA. . . .
PER (player efficiency rating) is best stat to measure just how good a player is. PER, from the brilliant mind of Hollinger, is highly regarded around the league. One look at the 2012 NBA rankings, in which LeBron James was the run-away leader, proves its accuracy.
The guys at DraftExpress.com did their own PER evaluation of each player. This is how they stacked up:
Oh lord, Hollinger has hits and misses. If his analysis is that highly respected then why even have a GM? The owner can just call up Hollinger for all his personnel decisions.
There are a lot of things about a basketball player that numbers/stats can't measure. Hollinger only looks at the tangibles, which are great and have a place. But to say a GM actually relies on his trigonometry to pick guys in the draft is laughable.
Streak23 All-American Posts: 9169 Registered: Feb 2008
Posted July 8th, 2012 02:27 AM IPThe advanced metrics, which is basically Hollinger's PER is very well respected. While it's not the end-all-be-all, I'd assume a lot of people pay attention to these stats. Just look at his PER rankings and you'll see how good they are.
This is similar to Money Ball in MLB.
Underdog All-Region
Posts: 769 Registered: Dec 2007
Posted July 8th, 2012 09:43 AM IPThe intent behind the original comment was that the Cavs took Hollinger and other advanced stats under consideration in the evaluation process. Nobody would ever say they use Hollingers numbers like a fantasy football ranking in a magazine and make a pick.
Now you know. I feel much better now that I've given up all hope.
Quote: Streak23 wrote:
The advanced metrics, which is basically Hollinger's PER is very well respected. While it's not the end-all-be-all, I'd assume a lot of people pay attention to these stats. Just look at his PER rankings and you'll see how good they are.
This is similar to Money Ball in MLB.
Yeah, I have looked at his PER, not all that impressive. It has Lebron James ranked as the best player in basketball. Wow, the formula must be pretty amazing! It works! I had no idea!!! Great Stuff!!
The PER only measures rebounds in terms of a defensive statistic. Help side defense, charges taken, ability to guard the pick and roll etc are not measured at all (and probably couldn't be measured with numbers). This is basically an offensive ranking. There are plenty of flaws to using this to measure players.
I mean Roy Hibbert is going to get a max offer and he is the 45th ranked player in Hollinger's rankings.
The Pacers had the 5th best record in the NBA, and 1 player in Hollinger's top 50.
Nikola Pekovic is rated ahead of Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett and Deron Williams.
Dr. Torch Automatic Mojo Posts: 13557 Registered: Oct 2007
roflWARNING: LITHIUM NO LONGER AVAILABLE ON CREDIT
"From the forest itself comes the handle for the axe."
-Matisyahn
JackHammer Knight of the Round Table
Posts: 4144 Registered: Apr 2005
Posted July 8th, 2012 10:49 PM IPI am saying it might catch a GM's eye when looking to fill out their roster for an 8th, 9th or 10th type guy on the bench.
I heavily doubt Grant uses a John Hollinger metric system in deciding who to draft. Like I said, if that is the case why hire a GM at all?
Underdog All-Region
Posts: 769 Registered: Dec 2007
Posted July 29th, 2012 09:32 PM IPJust for the basketball junkie looking for something to read . . .
A Sports Illustrated article by Luke Winn who charted Syracuse's defense last year. Concluded that Waiters was a top defender -
Quote: JackHammer wrote:
I am saying it might catch a GM's eye when looking to fill out their roster for an 8th, 9th or 10th type guy on the bench.
I heavily doubt Grant uses a John Hollinger metric system in deciding who to draft. Like I said, if that is the case why hire a GM at all?
metrics are pretty big with new guard general managers, of which Grant is a part of...i agree that it is probably most useful when filling out scrub spots, but that's not to say it isn't something he uses to get a better picture of things at the top also
sidenote: how bad is Derrick Williams?WARNING: LITHIUM NO LONGER AVAILABLE ON CREDIT
"From the forest itself comes the handle for the axe."
-Matisyahn
Underdog All-Region
Posts: 769 Registered: Dec 2007
Posted July 29th, 2012 10:50 PM IPScrubs don't have any metrics. With scrubs you're looking at guys with a characteristic that may fill some type of hole.
Derrick Williams - the guy everyone loved (along with Brandon Knight or Kemba). Despite Williams' tournament feats, I seem to recall that Tristan Thompson outplayed him in workouts . . . and his excellent metrics may have CONFIRMED what Grant thought he was seeing. They concluded, "Let's get Kyrie and this guy."
Might be the same with Waiters. Grant liked him. Scott loved him. He jumped out at you on film. Metrics provided some confirmation that what they were seeing wasn't a fluke. I feel much better now that I've given up all hope.
Underdog All-Region
Posts: 769 Registered: Dec 2007
Posted October 3rd, 2012 08:57 PM IPHollinger: I Shudder to Think What Kyrie Irving will be at 25
October 3, 2012 By Scott
In his latest edition of player profiles for the 2012-13 NBA season, ESPN’s resident statnik John Hollinger took on the Cleveland Cavaliers.
Amidst all of the number crunching and prognosticating (a must-read for you number types), Hollinger had the following to say about point guard Kyrie Irving. I’m still big on the Irving bandwagon. Who wouldn’t be after he ranked fifth among point guards in PER as a 19-year-old rookie?
But I’ll say this: When they’re replacing you with Ramon Sessions for defensive purposes, that might be a sign you have work to do.
As good as Irving was on offense, he was a horrifying, flaming train wreck on defense. Synergy rated him the worst defensive player in the league with at least 300 plays defended, opposing point guards ripped him for a 19.0 PER according to 82games.com, and the Cavs gave up 5.0 points per 100 possessions more with him on the court — even though his usual replacement, Sessions, was himself among the league’s most flammable point guards.
Irving is so young and skilled that one presumes he’ll make strong progress, especially after jumping into the NBA after just a handful of college games. Too often he just didn’t know what to do or where he was supposed to be, and that’s all stuff he’ll learn.
Meanwhile, he’s a breathtaking offensive talent with an airtight handle and deep shooting ability. Irving made 39.9 percent of his triples as a rookie and shot 60.4 percent at the basket, a nice combo that sums up his inside-outside threat. He also shot 87.2 percent from the line, which is amazing for a teenage rookie.
The one concern is that he played more as a scorer than as a passer, ranking only 58th among point guards in assist rate and 59th in pure point rating. Granted, there weren’t a lot of options, but to reach superstardom he’ll need to be a better distributor and play less as an undersized 2. With all that said … if he’s this good at 19, I shudder to think what he’ll be at 25.
Hollinger predicts that the Cavaliers’ starting five will be Irving joining rookie Dion Waiters, recently re-signed Alonzo Gee, Tristan Thompson and Anderson Varejao. Hollinger predicts that Irving will put up 26.9 points and 7.3 assists per 40-minute contest with a PER of 23.1, representing a nice increase off of his Rookie of the Year campaign. Interestingly enough, he pegs Thompson with an average of 16 point and 10.5 rebounds a game, just north of the target placed upon him by head coach Byron Scott.I feel much better now that I've given up all hope.
ScarletFever Africentric's Booster Club Prez Posts: 26640 Registered: Apr 2005
Quote: ScarletFever wrote:
I shudder to think what team Kyrie Iring will be on at 25.
Gilbert won't let it happen twice.
I'm not a Gilbert fan but I give him credit for not being that stupid.
I bet he has a plan to have the Cavs in serious contention by 2014/15.
He damn well better have!"Men are born ignorant, not stupid. They are made stupid by education."
____Bertrand Russell
galion All-State
Posts: 3476 Registered: Nov 2009
Posted October 4th, 2012 10:08 PM IPI don't know. Should be about the time Kobe retires. I'm guessing LA.
Underdog All-Region
Posts: 769 Registered: Dec 2007
Posted October 4th, 2012 11:33 PM IPWe need to make the playoffs this year.
We need to hit home runs with a pick or two lower than 18.
We need the "Q" to rock like it did a couple of years ago.
Then we need a blockbuster trade or free agent signing. I feel much better now that I've given up all hope.
concreteman89 All-Region
Posts: 924 Registered: Sep 2011
Posted October 9th, 2012 01:38 PM IP^^^^ Thats alot of needs!If you ain't first....Your last!
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