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hafner_for_mvp
All-American
Posts: 7654
Registered: Sep 2006 |
 Posted March 5th, 2012 01:28 AM IP   
Not going to beat around the bush. This is going to be long enough as it is. This is exactly what it sounds like. Are the Indians really as "clumsy" or "ignorant" in the front office as what a lot of the fans make them out to be?
*The team has different ownership and upper management now compared to the glory days of the 90s, but Mark Shapiro has been around for all of it (1991) and Chris Antonetti for the latter portion (1999.)
1994-2001. One of the elite franchise in Major League Baseball. A winning record every season. Six division titles and two AL pennants.
2002-2003. Full throttle rebuilding. Two bad seasons as the team brought in and installed new players.
2004. The team shows some promise and finishes with 80 wins.
2005. 93 wins and was arguably the best team in baseball post All Star break. Would have made the playoffs under the new postseason format.
2006. 78 wins. Yet they outscored their opponents by 88 runs. One of the weirdest individual team seasons under the current saebermetrics era. Bill James has their pythagorean record as being 92-70. Antonetti says they "should have won 90 games." Shapiro says the team should have "easily won at least 85 games." (This section cited from Terry Pluto's "Dealing".)
2007. 96 wins. Division Champions. The 1A best team in baseball behind Boston.
2008. 81 wins. +44 run differential. Unperformed by four games according to Bil James.
2009-2010. Another slight rebuilding stage. Not as dramatic as "02 & "03. Two very below average to bad teams.
2011. 80 wins. Took a four game skid to end the season to avoid finishing at or above .500. Put a quality team on the field up until September. Could argue they put a very good team on the field up until August.
Basically what I'm getting at is that the Indians have put at least a respectable and/or quality product on the field in all but four seasons in the last 18 years. You could debate that they were good enough to win the World Series in maybe five of those. That is a pretty good percentage. It hasn't always translated to postseason success, but the American League as a whole is stronger than the National League. In terms of mid market efficiency, they are above average at translating success with limited funds compared to the other franchises with similar markets. Minnesota was once a model of middle tier markets, but they are now tied down with the massive Justin Morneau and Joe Mauer contracts and are unable to improve the team. There is a reason why the Indians appear at times to be less than enthused to hand out big deals. Sometimes they work. Sometimes they don't. Even when they do the result of one not working is much more impactful to the long term perspective.
I encourage everyone to read "Dealing" by Terry Pluto if you already have not. I would even be willing to loan it out if you are interested. I have always been supportive and optimistic about what the front office has done and is doing, but after reading the book I understand even more now. Pluto is probably the most respected columnist in Cleveland, and for the most part he agrees and endorses what the team has done for basically the last 20 years. It's hard to sustain long term success in the kind of market the Indians represent. And aside from St.Louis, Minnesota, and up until recently Tampa Bay, there hasn't been a more productive team with similar market than Cleveland. Oakland was relevant for a few years. Since then they've had poor drafts, have hit sparingly on trade returns, have had some bad luck with the likes of Rich Harden, and been one of the poorer teams in the league for much of the last five years. I think even the most pessimistic of fans will even agree that the Indians are a more efficiently run organization than the Athletics.
I'm not trying to pass a belief that the Indians are some super franchise. Not at all. Even I'm not that crazy  . But they are solid when it comes putting a respective product on the field....most of the time.
Give a man a fish, he eats for a night. Teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime.
"A hurtful truth is better than a useless lie."
*08-09 NCAA FB Pick Em Champion*
*2009 NOL FB Pick Em Champion*
*09-10 NCAA FB Pick Em Champion*
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My2Sons
All-County
Posts: 185
Registered: Dec 2006 |
Posted March 5th, 2012 09:44 AM IP
If it makes you feel better, everything up here is just as screwed up as the sports franchises.
"Christ is King"
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Dr. Torch
Automatic Mojo
Posts: 13557
Registered: Oct 2007 |
Posted March 5th, 2012 12:26 PM IP
the Indians have been as well run as they possibly can be in the current economic situation they are facing
the reality is the town itself is a disaster, the park is already crumbling, and no FA wants to come to Cleveland to play
generally speaking the regime has drafted well, developed well, and been willing to bite the weenie Riz when it comes time to trade off their unsignable stars...our return on the trades hasn't always been what we wanted but for the most part we have gotten good deals even then...LaPorta didn't pan out but then look at the Casey Blake trade...
i have to say tho that the 2007 team damn near killed me...even for a jaded Cleveland fan that one was particularly painful, with the Rockies just sitting there already in the WS having won like 22 games in a row and then not playing for two weeks, everyone knew they were going to be cannon fodder for whichever AL team came out...Scarlet Fever and I had a couple epic threads from that series that kind of set the bar when it comes to live in-game posting, if those things are still archived they should be published haha
ugh
also, one of my greatest sports memories ever from that year, in the Yankees series, watching Maestro Fausto Carmona pitch thru Joba, the Yankee's Hitters, and legions of Canadian Soldiers to a big W
WARNING: LITHIUM NO LONGER AVAILABLE ON CREDIT
"From the forest itself comes the handle for the axe."
-Matisyahn
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ScarletFever
Africentric's Booster Club Prez
Posts: 26640
Registered: Apr 2005 |
Posted March 5th, 2012 12:51 PM IP
Quote:
Dr. Torch wrote:
also, one of my greatest sports memories ever from that year, in the Yankees series, watching Maestro Fausto Carmona pitch thru Joba, the Yankee's Hitters, and legions of Canadian Soldiers to a big W
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I was at this game with Willard legend 'Buck' don't call me Matthew Hines.
People all game kept coming up to us and saying 'what kind of insects are those? are they mosquitoes or muffle heads or what?' and Buck kept staring them in the face and saying BUGS.
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BGSUGA
NOSF Insider
Posts: 1872
Registered: Sep 2005 |
Posted March 5th, 2012 02:07 PM IP
Quote:
Dr. Torch wrote:
the Indians have been as well run as they possibly can be in the current economic situation they are facing
the reality is the town itself is a disaster, the park is already crumbling, and no FA wants to come to Cleveland to play
generally speaking the regime has drafted well, developed well, and been willing to bite the weenie Riz when it comes time to trade off their unsignable stars...our return on the trades hasn't always been what we wanted but for the most part we have gotten good deals even then...LaPorta didn't pan out but then look at the Casey Blake trade...
i have to say tho that the 2007 team damn near killed me...even for a jaded Cleveland fan that one was particularly painful, with the Rockies just sitting there already in the WS having won like 22 games in a row and then not playing for two weeks, everyone knew they were going to be cannon fodder for whichever AL team came out...Scarlet Fever and I had a couple epic threads from that series that kind of set the bar when it comes to live in-game posting, if those things are still archived they should be published haha
ugh
also, one of my greatest sports memories ever from that year, in the Yankees series, watching Maestro Fausto Carmona pitch thru Joba, the Yankee's Hitters, and legions of Canadian Soldiers to a big W
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That team caused me one of the biggest disappointments of my life. I won the ticket lottery and had purchased World Series tickets. I still have them stored away even though they're worthless paper...such is the life of a Cleveland fan.
"Brick walls are there for a reason. They let us prove how badly we want things." Randy Pausch
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Dr. Torch
Automatic Mojo
Posts: 13557
Registered: Oct 2007 |
Posted March 5th, 2012 02:35 PM IP
DOHT!
WARNING: LITHIUM NO LONGER AVAILABLE ON CREDIT
"From the forest itself comes the handle for the axe."
-Matisyahn
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hafner_for_mvp
All-American
Posts: 7654
Registered: Sep 2006 |
Posted March 5th, 2012 07:44 PM IP
Quote:
Dr. Torch wrote:
the Indians have been as well run as they possibly can be in the current economic situation they are facing
the reality is the town itself is a disaster, the park is already crumbling, and no FA wants to come to Cleveland to play
generally speaking the regime has drafted well, developed well, and been willing to bite the weenie Riz when it comes time to trade off their unsignable stars...our return on the trades hasn't always been what we wanted but for the most part we have gotten good deals even then...LaPorta didn't pan out but then look at the Casey Blake trade...
i have to say tho that the 2007 team damn near killed me...even for a jaded Cleveland fan that one was particularly painful, with the Rockies just sitting there already in the WS having won like 22 games in a row and then not playing for two weeks, everyone knew they were going to be cannon fodder for whichever AL team came out...Scarlet Fever and I had a couple epic threads from that series that kind of set the bar when it comes to live in-game posting, if those things are still archived they should be published haha
ugh
also, one of my greatest sports memories ever from that year, in the Yankees series, watching Maestro Fausto Carmona pitch thru Joba, the Yankee's Hitters, and legions of Canadian Soldiers to a big W
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Right on. You basically summed it up while cutting it down, a ton. Nice!
Basically I was trying to say that it is almost impossible for the Indians to sustain consistent, year in and year out success with baseball's current economic structure. And that they normally put at least a respectable and watchable product on the field.
2007 was a killer though. Without question. I remember listening to Triv one evening last year on the way up the park. He said that the "07 season was the most fun he's ever had with an Indians team. And that includes the stretch in the 90s'.
Give a man a fish, he eats for a night. Teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime.
"A hurtful truth is better than a useless lie."
*08-09 NCAA FB Pick Em Champion*
*2009 NOL FB Pick Em Champion*
*09-10 NCAA FB Pick Em Champion*
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Northern Ohio Sports Forum :: Professional Sports :: MLB :: Our Cleveland Indians; Are they are disfunctional as we seem to think? |
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