Northern Ohio Sports Forum

Listen to games on: wlkrradio.com = Norwalk ------ wlec.com = Sandusky ------ wttf.com = Tiffin ------ wfob.com = Fostoria

Northern Ohio Sports Forum

Author

Message

Vogel
Administrator

Posts: 1234
Registered: Apr 2009

Posted November 8th, 2009 07:00 AM IP

Not a single NOL team beat a single playoff team this year.

Wins vs teams that made the playoffs
2009
0 - Bellevue
0 - Fostoria
0 - Galion
0 - Norwalk
0 - Shelby
0 - Tiffin Columbian
0 - Upper Sandusky
0 - Willard

2001
5 - Bellevue
4 - Willard
2 - Shelby
1 - Tiffin Columbian
1 - Upper Sandusky
0 - Bucyrus
0 - Galion
0 - Norwalk

This is what I was talking about after Week 6, then again after Week 7, then again after Week 8, then again after Week 9, then again after Week 10.

I'm such a meanie. How dare I say the NOL in 2009 is weak.

2001 Galion
undefeated vs teams that were NOT playoff caliber
win-less vs teams that WERE playoff caliber

2009 Galion
undefeated vs teams that were NOT playoff caliber
win-less vs teams that WERE playoff caliber

I got so much heat for saying 2001 Galion which went (5-5) was about equal to 2009 Galion. How dare I try to live in reality.

2001 Galion
L - (15-42) - AP #1 Big Walnut
L - (15-42) - Willard (Willard beat 4 playoff teams that year)
L - (0-42) - Tiffin Columbian (rank as the 3rd best NOL team in the Vogel Rankings from 1999-2009)
L - (36-39, ot) - Bellevue (Bellevue went to the Final Four)
L - (26-32, 2ot) - Upper Sandusky (Upper was knocked out of the playoffs by AP #1 Big Walnut)
W - (33-14) over Shelby
W - (63-28) over Norwalk
W - (35-8) over Bucyrus
W - (33-0) over Colonel Crawford
W - (28-6) over Ashland

2009 Galion is who I thought they were.

- A team that would go 5-2, or 4-3 in a TYPICAL year in the NOL
- Which means with their non-league schedule 8-2 or 7-3

- A team that would have went 3-4 or 4-3 in 2001
- still not bad, the league was loaded that year

- A team that is PLAYOFF CALIBER, but really nothing more

Cal Preps and the Vogel Rankings let us know early on and continued to let us know that 2009 Galion was a Playoff Caliber team and nothing more. Then I watched Galion with my own 2 eyes and it confirmed exactly what those rankings were saying with their #'s.

2009 NOL Champions = Galion Tigers
^^^^^ That's REALITY

2009 Galion Tigers = one of the weaker NOL Champs of All-Time
^^^^ That's REALITY

Don't understand why people can't accept reality.

2005 Tiffin Columbian = one of the weaker NOL Champs of All-Time
^^^^ That's REALITY

Trent Dilfer = one of the weaker QB's to ever win a Super Bowl
^^^ How dare I degrade Dilfer like that. How dare I say he's not on par with Joe Montana.

(Edited by Vogel)

eat_my_shorts All-Region Posts: 660 Registered: Nov 2008	Posted November 8th, 2009 08:22 AM IP You could have saved all the stats and comments of your diatribe for yourself after the first line. Let us know how you really feel about Galion.

Vogel
Administrator

Posts: 1234
Registered: Apr 2009

Posted November 8th, 2009 09:33 AM IP

MAC 5-0 in 1st round
NOL 0-1 in 1st round

(5-5) Marion Local which finished 6th in the MAC won it's first round game 24-3. That's the team that Cal Preps said was better than Galion and Eastwood. But Cal Preps was just being biased. Cal Preps hates Eastwood and Galion. No way could a (5-5) D-6 school be better than Eastwood and Galion. No way.

MAC
28 - (7-3) #8 seed St Henry -----------38.4 Cal Preps Rating
3 - (10-0) #1 seed North Union ------ 18.1 Cal Preps Rating

41 - (9-1) #2 seed Coldwater --------- 47.8 Cal Preps Rating
0 - (7-3) #7 seed Hamilton Badin ----- 22.1 Cal Preps Rating

20 - (8-2) #6 seed Anna ---------------- 40.0 Cal Preps Rating
17 - (8-1) #3 seed Bishop Ready ----- 27.6 Cal Preps Rating

62 - (10-0) #1 seed Delphos St John's --- 52.5 Cal Preps Rating
0 - (7-3) #8 seed Arlington ------------------ 15.2 Cal Preps Rating

24 - (5-5) #5 seed Marion Local --------- 28.7 Cal Preps Rating
3 - (7-3) #4 seed Lehman Catholic ------ 15.9 Cal Preps Rating

For perspective on the past by using 2009 data

If this was 1974
Genoa would have MISSED the playoffs in favor of Galion

Coldwater would have MISSED the playoffs in favor of North Union

Kettering Alter would have MISSED the playoffs in favor of Clinton Massie (Massie isn't weak #6 in D-4, they just aren't Alter)

Coldwater is the #1 rated D-5 school in the State according to Cal Preps. Yet if this were 1974 Coldwater would have been sitting at home, and North Union which just got stomped 28-3 by the 4th place MAC team would not have lost because St Henry also would not have been in the playoffs. North 'joke' Union might have won it all.

Kettering Alter is the #1 rated D-4 school in the State according to Cal Preps. Yet if this were 1974 Alter would have been sitting at home, and Clinton-Massie would be the school representing that region. (Let's see what happens when they meet on the field)

Genoa is the #3 rated D-4 school in the State according to Cal Preps. Yet if this were 1974 Genoa would have been sitting at home, and Galion would be the school representing Region 14. Never mind that Genoa beat Eastwood (54-11). Genoa nor Eastwood would have been playoff teams in 1974. Galion would have been.

Puts into perspective the GREAT teams that were being left out of the playoffs in the 1970's and the sloppy teams that made it in over them. Luckily since 1999 it's expanded to 8 teams and the truly Great teams make the playoffs now. But wow, the 1970's is filled with the best teams sitting at home and some teams that had no business being in the playoffs over them winning the State Championships.

Now tell me about how I'm a hater on the 1970's.

I'm all about REALITY. Reality is that back in the 1970's when only 1 team made the playoffs per region a lot of frauds got into the Final Four over the truly great teams. Luckily the OHSAA wised up and expanded to 2 teams in 1980 then 4 teams in 1985, and then wised up even more in 1999 to get to 8 teams. 1999 to present day provides a lot more legit Champs than the 1970's produced.

Vogel
Administrator

Posts: 1234
Registered: Apr 2009

Posted November 8th, 2009 09:43 AM IP

Some fans are going to go bonkers over the Cal Preps ratings after 11 weeks

2009 NOL
14.0 - Galion
13.3 - TC
4.0 - Bellevue
1.1 - Shelby
-0.6 - Willard
-1.4 - Fostoria
-8.1 - Upper Sandusky
-12.5 - Norwalk

2008
28.6 - Fostoria
25.7 - TC
21.7 - Bellevue
11.5 - Shelby
6.1 - Galion
-0.2 - Upper Sandusky
-4.4 - Willard
-15.4 - Norwalk

Like I was saying for the past month. Just amazed at how so many people can be so oblivious to the reality of a situation.

jake Administrator Posts: 22021 Registered: Jun 2005	Posted November 8th, 2009 09:45 AM IP I'll expand a little going to the 80s; 1985 Division II State Champs would have been sitting home had they stayed at 2 teams per Region like they did from 80-84. 1972, 1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988, 2000, 2001, 2002, and 2009 World Champions! Will the Lakers Repeat? YES!

Vogel
Administrator

Posts: 1234
Registered: Apr 2009

Posted November 8th, 2009 09:54 AM IP

The OHSAA will never do it, but a better system for selecting playoff teams would be to use Cal Preps instead of the system they currently do. Cal Preps is better at determining who is worthy and who isn't worthy than the system the OHSAA uses.

Bucyrus wasn't all that when they went (9-1) and missed the playoffs a few year back. But let's say they played the same schedule (take out Wynford and insert the team I list next) and had 9 wins each by the score of 100-0 and lost one game (22-21) to the (15-0) D-I State Champs. Under the system the OHSAA uses Bucyrus still would have missed the playoffs. Yet Cal Preps would be smart enough to know that a Bucyrus team that won 100-0 in each of their 9 wins and lost to a juggernaut D-I school by 1 is worthy of the playoffs.

NorCal
Unregistered

Posts:
Registered:

Posted November 8th, 2009 10:17 AM IP

Quote:
Vogel wrote:
The OHSAA will never do it, but a better system for selecting playoff teams would be to use Cal Preps instead of the system they currently do. Cal Preps is better at determining who is worthy and who isn't worthy than the system the OHSAA uses.

The North Coast Section of California used CalPreps ratings to determine and seed it's play-off field for a couple of years. I thought it was great. It put to rest an old argument about favoritism for East Bay teams. Some people objected (I can't recall the basis for their complaints) and now play-off teams are chosen by committee. Coaches and AD's can submit a brief written case for their team's inclusion but, may not use CalPreps data to make their argument. Total BS. You can't use the best unbiased data available to determine play-off teams.

da24 All-American Posts: 8540 Registered: Sep 2005	Posted November 8th, 2009 10:24 AM IP By committee? I can only imagine that nightmare here! Between 2011 and 2020, the nation will accumulate $9.8 trillion in deficits as a under the Obama budget, according to the CBO, ending the decade with $20.3 trillion in public debt, BARRY WON!

NorCal Unregistered Posts: Registered:	Posted November 8th, 2009 10:26 AM IP Yep. committee. They used to let coaches make presentations. Man, the stories that came out of that process! Using Cal Preps was so clean.

da24 All-American Posts: 8540 Registered: Sep 2005	Posted November 8th, 2009 10:28 AM IP I would imagine near riots! Between 2011 and 2020, the nation will accumulate $9.8 trillion in deficits as a under the Obama budget, according to the CBO, ending the decade with $20.3 trillion in public debt, BARRY WON!

Whittaker
All-County

Posts: 111
Registered: Jan 2008

Posted November 8th, 2009 01:43 PM IP

Regarding Vogel statistics

Statistics can be a good predictor.
When many teams play each other during the same season, the data can be used to make intelligent predictions.
The error is comparing teams from different years. They have no common opponents. The 1990 Shelby Whippets can be intelligently compared to the 1990 Norwalk Truckers. The 1990 Shelby Whippets cannot be intelligently compared to the 1993 Norwalk Truckers. There is no standard for comparison because the 1990 Shelby Whippets and none of their opponents ever played the 1993 Norwalk Truckers or any of their opponents.
In track where performance is measured by standards of time and distance comparisons across years are valid.
There is simply no valid way to use stats to argue that a 1990 team is better than a 1993 team. The 1990 team may have been better against 1990 competition than the 1993 team was against 1993 competition, but there is not a common standard to compare a 1990 team verses a 1993 team.
You can make a valid argument that the 2009 NOL was weak against 2009 competition. You can make a valid argument that the 2001 NOL was strong against 2001 competition. You cannot make a valid argument, using stats, that the 2001 NOL would have beaten the 2009 NOL on the field. It is simply, scientifically false. It is an opinion, unproven by data.

(Edited by Whittaker)

Whittaker All-County Posts: 111 Registered: Jan 2008	Posted November 8th, 2009 01:47 PM IP It's like Nicklaus vs. Woods or Magic vs. LeBron Fun to think about....just don't claim the numbers prove your side of the debate.

eat_my_shorts All-Region Posts: 660 Registered: Nov 2008	Posted November 8th, 2009 01:53 PM IP A stat throwdown. I tend to agree with Whit. No way of ACTUALLY knowing. Purely speculative.

ScarletFever Administrator Posts: 19557 Registered: Apr 2005	Posted November 8th, 2009 01:57 PM IP Here's a fact, if 2001 NOL played 2009 NOL in a round robin format and money or our lives were on the line we'd all pick 2001. "He put the dagger in the coffin" - Austin Carr

Whittaker All-County Posts: 111 Registered: Jan 2008	Posted November 8th, 2009 02:09 PM IP ScarletFever Agreed Personal observation and common sense are important. And I shouldn't have said earlier that it was just opinion unsupported by data. I should have said "unproven by data" My mistake

Whittaker All-County Posts: 111 Registered: Jan 2008	Posted November 8th, 2009 02:10 PM IP I'll change it

94hoops All-Region Posts: 700 Registered: Aug 2007	Posted November 8th, 2009 02:48 PM IP The NOL was god aweful this year. Everything goes in cycles and it will rebound here shortly.

ScarletFever
Administrator

Posts: 19557
Registered: Apr 2005

Posted November 8th, 2009 02:51 PM IP

Quote:
94hoops wrote:
The NOL was god aweful this year. Everything goes in cycles and it will rebound here shortly.

Hopefully

"He put the dagger in the coffin" - Austin Carr

Willard Fillmore
All-State

Posts: 2552
Registered: Dec 2006

Posted November 8th, 2009 04:05 PM IP

"Vogel Rankings" were a failure in this one, they had Galion favored by 1 point over Eastwood.

According to CalPreps, Galion's win over Bucyrus was a better win than Galion's wins over Bellevue, Shelby, Fostoria, Willard, Norwalk and Upper.

According to CalPreps, Galion's win over Colonel Crawford was a better win than Galion's wins over Shelby, Fostoria, Willard, Norwalk and Upper.

Historically CalPreps has Tiffin as the 88th best program in Ohio, Bellevue is 188.

According to CalPreps Middletown is the best team in Ohio. However, Middletown finished in 3rd place in their league. How could that be?

CalPreps takes into consideration margin of victory and points scored.

Eastwood showed a lot of class last night by taking a knee at the 5 yard line with a under a minute to go leading 35-6.

If CalPreps would be used to determine what teams make the playoffs in Ohio and that was a regular season game, CalPreps would have forced Eastwood to do everything possible to score one more TD. In CalPreps, every TD is important, even if it means calling timeouts at the end of the game to score one more TD in blowouts. Second string players would get very few minutes, as CalPreps would force winning teams in blowouts to do all they could, not only to score as many points as possible, but keeping the opponents from scoring any points.

Genoa is a perfect example. CalPreps has Genoa as the #3 team in DIV. Even though Genoa's strength of schedule is a .9, which is just above average. A team must score a lot of points, have a high margin of victory, to be rated highly, to make the playoffs, to get a good seed, when they have an average strength of schedule.

After Eastwood's win over Galion, CalPreps rates 9-2 Eastwood as 16 in DIV, just behind 7-4 Clear Fork who lost to Orrville for the 2nd time. Galion is #33.
(Edited by Willard Fillmore)

#13

Brutus149
All-State

Posts: 1031
Registered: Sep 2008

Posted November 8th, 2009 04:33 PM IP

Middletown only lost by 3 to Colerain, the 11th ranked team from CalPreps
Middletown just beat the the 7th ranked team 45-10
Colerain only lost to the 3rd and 4th ranked teams.
The Greater Miami conference is a 10 team league and doesn't have all teams playing each other, Middletown and Colerain never got a chance to play the 24th ranked team and "1st" place Lakota West.

That "3rd" place finish is highly misleading, that league was loaded at the top and not every team played each other.
Like saying a wrestler cannot be the best in college, he only finished 3rd in some conference called the Big Twelve.

Clear Fork didn't have their best player when Orrville beat them in the playoffs, that player and others missed most of the 1st game and that was in a real Mud Bowl.
And whose to say Orrville wouldn't have just as many Harbin Points as Galion through 10 games if they played the exact same schedule? Teams can get a ton of Harbin points by beating ok teams in very weak conferences overall.

Good teams should blow out very poor teams. And nothing says they cannot tweak the formula that factors in half time scores too, that end up mattering when playing very weak teams.

Things like CalPreps are a very good guide, probably better than Harbin Points.
You really cannot make as a prime example that a formula is poor and a team isn't the best when they've only barely lost to one of the best and blew out another top team.

Mostly individual sports like wrestling encourage one wrestler trying to win by as much as possible and even have rules to penalize a wrestler for not trying to get points. The etiquette of sports like football just happen to be historically different.
The current pow-wow method California has, is worse than the CalPreps scenario.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

Vogel
Administrator

Posts: 1234
Registered: Apr 2009

Posted November 9th, 2009 07:28 AM IP

Quote:
Willard Fillmore wrote:

According to CalPreps Middletown is the best team in Ohio. However, Middletown finished in 3rd place in their league. How could that be?

What what a nescient poster. Can't believe I'm responding to this asinine post.

Brutus149 took you to school in the post above. But I'll throw this in.

Middletown went 9-1. (9-1). Yes (9-1). Wonder how they finished 3rd in their own league. Could it be b/c not everyone plays everyone.

And you have to be a BLITHERING IDIOT to think it's possible to ever have teams ranked so that the higher ranked team never loses.
^^^ You are a blithering idiot so I'm sure you think it is possible, that's why you made this post.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

For Willard Fillmore to answer.

Rank these 3 teams
Willard
Upper Sandusky
Fostoria

And by YOUR own logic of saying Cal Preps is so wrong to list (9-1) Middletown #1 since they lost a single game by 3 points, you too can't have a team ranked higher than a team it lost to.

Good luck.

By the way Fillmore, there is this thing called CAPPING score margin. You can even put in a formula that scores teams after 3 quarters to stop a team from running it up in the 4th. You have to be a buffoon, b/c you have no knowledge of anything computer formula based.

It was OBVIOUS by sight, and by computers that 2009 Galion was a just sneak into the playoffs caliber team. Been saying that for weeks. But you BLIND HOMERS wouldn't listen because VOGEL said it. Eastwood isn't anything great. They are just like Galion. Galion = Eastwood - 2 teams that are teams that typically sneak into the playoffs. You might like your boy Whittaker saying you can't compare teams from different years, but you can do it WAY better than Whittaker thinks.

Looking at Galion's rating and looking at past NOL teams with that rating the results are mirror images

Vogel Rankings
1999
72.234 - (7-4) Shelby - 4th best team in the NOL
Round 1 - Lost (51-6) to Watterson (Shelby was without 4 or 5 starters due to suspension)

2000
73.802 - (7-3) Shelby - 3rd best team in the NOL
Did not make the playoffs

2001
76.455 - (6-4) Upper Sandusky - 4th best team in the NOL (Game vs TC cancelled)
Round 1 - Lost (41-6) to Big Walnut

2002
75.611 - (6-4) Bellevue - 4th best team in the NOL
Did not make the playoffs

2003
Nobody in the low 70's

2004
Nobody in the low 70's

2005
76.168 - (8-3) Tiffin Columbian - Best team in the NOL
Round 1 - Lost (24-10) to Toledo CC

2006
73.332 - (6-4) Bellevue - 3rd best team in the NOL
Did not make the playoffs

2007
Nobody in the low 70's

2008
Nobody in the low 70's

2009
70.924 - (10-1) Galion - best team in the NOL
Round 1 - Lost (35-6) to Eastwood

Only Low 70's teams that win in round 1 are low 70's teams that get to play low 70's teams.

For D-3 and D-4 schools
Solid playoff teams are in the 80's
Teams that have a good shot at making a run are in the upper 80's
Teams with a shot to get to State are in the 90's
Tems that should make it to State and possibly win it are in the mid-to-upper 90's or even in the 100's
^^^^ This works year after year, even though Whittaker thinks it's so impossible to do.

Amazing how my rankings knew lots of NOL teams were capable of winning playoff games in 2001 even though they had poor records compared to 2009 Galion. Yet it knew 2009 Galion was a squeak into the playoffs type team even though they were 10-0. Comparing teams across years isn't that hard.

scarlet_gray All-District Posts: 252 Registered: Sep 2008	Posted November 9th, 2009 05:35 PM IP Whittaker, It is nice to see someone else can see through the smoke of vogel's posts. I do not think vogel is motivated by hating a particular team but there seems to be a mix up of the statistics, facts, analysis, probability, and reality.

Willard Fillmore
All-State

Posts: 2552
Registered: Dec 2006

Posted November 9th, 2009 10:46 PM IP

Quote:
Vogel wrote:

What what a nescient poster. Can't believe I'm responding to this asinine post.

Brutus149 took you to school in the post above. But I'll throw this in.

Middletown went 9-1. (9-1). Yes (9-1). Wonder how they finished 3rd in their own league. Could it be b/c not everyone plays everyone.

And you have to be a BLITHERING IDIOT to think it's possible to ever have teams ranked so that the higher ranked team never loses.
^^^ You are a blithering idiot so I'm sure you think it is possible, that's why you made this post.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

For Willard Fillmore to answer.

Rank these 3 teams
Willard
Upper Sandusky
Fostoria

And by YOUR own logic of saying Cal Preps is so wrong to list (9-1) Middletown #1 since they lost a single game by 3 points, you too can't have a team ranked higher than a team it lost to.

Good luck.

By the way Fillmore, there is this thing called CAPPING score margin. You can even put in a formula that scores teams after 3 quarters to stop a team from running it up in the 4th. You have to be a buffoon, b/c you have no knowledge of anything computer formula based.

It was OBVIOUS by sight, and by computers that 2009 Galion was a just sneak into the playoffs caliber team. Been saying that for weeks. But you BLIND HOMERS wouldn't listen because VOGEL said it. Eastwood isn't anything great. They are just like Galion. Galion = Eastwood - 2 teams that are teams that typically sneak into the playoffs. You might like your boy Whittaker saying you can't compare teams from different years, but you can do it WAY better than Whittaker thinks.

Looking at Galion's rating and looking at past NOL teams with that rating the results are mirror images

Vogel Rankings
1999
72.234 - (7-4) Shelby - 4th best team in the NOL
Round 1 - Lost (51-6) to Watterson (Shelby was without 4 or 5 starters due to suspension)

2000
73.802 - (7-3) Shelby - 3rd best team in the NOL
Did not make the playoffs

2001
76.455 - (6-4) Upper Sandusky - 4th best team in the NOL (Game vs TC cancelled)
Round 1 - Lost (41-6) to Big Walnut

2002
75.611 - (6-4) Bellevue - 4th best team in the NOL
Did not make the playoffs

2003
Nobody in the low 70's

2004
Nobody in the low 70's

2005
76.168 - (8-3) Tiffin Columbian - Best team in the NOL
Round 1 - Lost (24-10) to Toledo CC

2006
73.332 - (6-4) Bellevue - 3rd best team in the NOL
Did not make the playoffs

2007
Nobody in the low 70's

2008
Nobody in the low 70's

2009
70.924 - (10-1) Galion - best team in the NOL
Round 1 - Lost (35-6) to Eastwood

Only Low 70's teams that win in round 1 are low 70's teams that get to play low 70's teams.

For D-3 and D-4 schools
Solid playoff teams are in the 80's
Teams that have a good shot at making a run are in the upper 80's
Teams with a shot to get to State are in the 90's
Tems that should make it to State and possibly win it are in the mid-to-upper 90's or even in the 100's
^^^^ This works year after year, even though Whittaker thinks it's so impossible to do.

Amazing how my rankings knew lots of NOL teams were capable of winning playoff games in 2001 even though they had poor records compared to 2009 Galion. Yet it knew 2009 Galion was a squeak into the playoffs type team even though they were 10-0. Comparing teams across years isn't that hard.

Yet another ignoramus post for Mr. Loser from Loserville.

PLEASE show us where I said "CalPeps was so wrong". I DARE YOU, LIAR.

I posed the question about Middletown, which had an obvious answer, so everyone could witness your ugly mouthed immature loser response. Thanks for playing.

You're the OBVIOUS blithering idiot for making assumptions for the sole purpose of calling people names, ...such as blithering idiot. An immature loser's practice, programmers never make assumptions, they do as asked.

You are SOOOOOO stupid, you actually think I'm a Galion "BLIND HOMER".

Ignoramus, show us where I've disagreed with your rating of Galion this year. I DARE YOU, LIAR.

I was supplying evidential information to back up your rating of Galion, by showing how CalPreps rated Galion's wins over Bucyrus and Colonel Crawford. No Thank You's? Why was that conveniently over looked by you? Or did you miss it when your hate filled blathering was taking place.

Computer programs are logic based. Ask a programmer and you shall receive. The difference? You're a lowly programmer. Material Managers tell those of your ilk to write programs for us, based on our needs. You're inquiring about my software interests? Google SAS.

Please show us where I said you can't compare teams from different years. I DARE YOU, LIAR.

What part of your formula caused your rankings to have Galion a 1 point favorite over Eastwood, when Eastwood won 35-6 and it could have been worse?

This is management asking, what part of your formula allows a Genoa to overcome their average strength of schedule to be rated so highly?

Another query from management. Using the same formula, how many years, how many decades can separate the teams/leagues being compared and maintain credence?
(Edited by Willard Fillmore)

#13

Posts: Registered:	Posted IP

Northern Ohio Sports Forum :: Northern Ohio Conferences :: NOL Football :: It's official

Mark all forums read Logout	All times are EST
	Forum jump:
Thread Options: Delete thread / Open/Close thread / Rename thread / Stick thread / Move thread / Merge thread

The NEW Huddle for non-paying Huddle members!

View Vogels Football and Basketball rankings

Opinions expressed on this site are just that, opinions.
Don't get your panties in a bunch and cry to a mod for another user to be booted just because you disagree with their opinion.
Beware Thin Skinned People: Crying to mods doesn't work here
Northern Ohio Sports Forum is in no way affiliated with any school.