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Genpo Roshi's Big Mind |
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mystic light
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 Posted March 19th, 2007 19:31 IP   
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When you say no no no ev, i see whence you come from, words can be disceiving so many times that is their nature and i apologuise for taken a misconception, clarvoyance is a myth for me. |
Ev, when you say you see where I am coming from and that words can be deceiving when I use "no no no" you may be applying a bias to me. You cannot make a judgement of me on the grounds of "no no no".
Also I said this:
"No, no, no, ((ev)) that is not what I meant."
So before I start assuming what you see where i come from, how did you take this? What do you mean when you say you know whence I come from? What does this say about me in your world, and are you sure it is the same in my world and my culture where this may be another thing than in yours?
Also, when you say that clairvoyance is a myth for you, you (-sorry-) may only be ignorant of some facts that exist in this world without your knowing it from firsthand experience, as I already said earlier, because my own father was clairvoyant.
So much for your myth! :blow:
But of course this is again second hand news for you and might therefore get rejected or viewed with doubt until you have first-hand experience.
But I know as a fact...and there are witnesses. 
(Edited by mystic light)
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ev
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Posted March 19th, 2007 21:03 IP
Quote:
When you say you see where I am coming from and that words can be deceiving when I use "no no no" you are applying your bias to me. You cannot make a judgement of me on the grounds of "no no no".
This is the way people talk in other countries, not better, not worse, just different from what you may be used to , and in your country this may denote a certain type of people, while it may denote a totally different type in another. And I am not from your country.
So, don't label me and judge me, I have to reject that. |
You've taken me totally the wrong way and no judgement is present, all i can hope is that you realise that, sometimes written language can be give false impression if you see my smile this confusion wouldn't have arisen.
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So much for your myth!
But of course this is again second hand news for you and will therefore be rejected until you have first-hand experience.
But I know as a fact, now. |
Everyone's path is different.
I can only trust what i experience.
For me to be present not creating me is all i practice, it works for me. Defining me for me prevents presence, not defining gives me peace, no anger, contentment, and selfless perception.
That is what works for me, i look for nothing more, nothing better, nothing worse, what is here is enough, when i see roshi i see searching, i don't know why, it just what is perceived.
I don't know why these words are presented as they are, I don't know, all I know is is there is no harmful, hurtful, intent in any of them, what they mean what they are saying, why an dwherefore will become apparent at some point, when i don't know, why i don't know,
I really don't know, what i am, or anything else is, and i've given up trying to guess.
Forgive the fool, i honestly don't know.
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mystic light
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Posted March 19th, 2007 21:33 IP
Ev, I am somebody who edits posts for a while until they sit right with me. Please reread what is there now. I apologize for the inconvenience, but you are quoting my old post! :lol: Dang...I do this a lot, I know. But I was done quite a while before your post appeared.
Now you will read this:
"So before I start assuming what you see where i come from, how did you take this? What do you mean when you say you know whence I come from? What does this say about me in your world, and are you sure it is the same in my world and my culture where this may be another thing than in yours? "
Maybe you can explain it to me and others...
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mystic light
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Posted March 19th, 2007 21:44 IP
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I can only trust what i experience. |
I dunno about that. I truly wonder. I see it from time to time that people differ here.
One category of people can also learn from observing others and reading.
Another only from own action and experience, the experience of others is not accessible, believed in the mind, only if personally, physically repeated.
Another category can only learn from pain...
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ev
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Posted March 19th, 2007 23:45 IP
Quote:
"So before I start assuming what you see where i come from, how did you take this? What do you mean when you say you know whence I come from? What does this say about me in your world, and are you sure it is the same in my world and my culture where this may be another thing than in yours? "
Maybe you can explain it to me and others |
It means I can see your point. Agreeing.
I haven't formed a vision of anna, for me there is no point I always get it wrong i find, and vice versa when i make assumptions about what someone is like from apearance alone it always seems to be wrong.
In my world you could be a bot writing program, although i have no reason not to beleive you are a female somewhere in world writing on a forum, i seem to be a man writing on a laptop, in his mid to late thirties, changing career, in a time of rapid change, i've come to notice that if i do things not for self gain things seem to go more smoothly, although i often find myself in some self scenario or another.
I don't know what i am, why i am, where i am, what is possible, what isn't possible, i come to expect the unexpected and am constantly surprised at how unexpected events can be, i was nearly glassed (a glass violent slashed into the face) by a man on saturday and 45 minutes later i hugged him and he hugged me in friendship despite his intoxication.
i don't know what on earth is going on to be honest, going with the flow, it seems to work for me.
Is clairvoyance possible?
I don't know, not in my experience so far, that does not mean it doesn't though, i don't know for sure, you say you do, so it may be of course but it also may not, you could be a bot, i don't know, if it is great, i'll find out one day, as we all are enlightenment manifest in essence i can only pressume my self will be forgotten at some time.
Please wish me luck in forgetting me,
if you don't create a me i humbly learn from you, if you do i hope you create your me for the least time possible, i hope you take me kindly, my dyslexia is severe and transforming thoughts into language conception isn't that easy for me, and can sometimes lead to misunderstanding.
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mystic light
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Posted March 20th, 2007 00:39 IP
Ahh... we have a similar handicap, my dear, I have a hard time expressing my inner feelings or knowledge with words, intellectully...lol...
. I can do it once I have found the right words but when there is something new....may take me a while to wrap some words around it...
-but tell me what a bot writing program is, that sounds cool. I heard it before I believe...
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Is clairvoyance possible?
I don't know, not in my experience so far |
It may be very hard to accept something we haven't experieced ourselves. Doubt comes into my mind suddenly as onee of thee 5 hindrances.
You know, with the same grounds you could argue that XY didn't have a nightmare about icebears, because you haven't had one yet. See?
I think we simply have to accept and believe that there is more than our own horizon, and that others are just as valid. I remember Richard discussed the same point with you on the Dalai Lama thread about Tantra, and you seem reluctant to believe the worlds of others.
I tell you this:
What would you say if a man plans to travel with his wife by train, dreams in the night that the train will jump out of the tracks and where, in every little detail and KNOWS this will happen....He tells his wife and says:" we won't take this train "and she doesn't believe him and says : "Of course we'll go!"
And he finally gives in and says, "okay, we will go then, as you wish, but only because I know that nobody will get hurt..."
And off they go, and travel by train, and it happens exactly the way he saw it in a "dream", but actually it was a vision, and my mother nearly fainted when she realized he was right, my Dad, with everything. Nobody got hurt. The train jumped out of the tracks. Exactly where he saw it happening hours before it actually happened.
If that had happened to your parents, you would have this in your world too. But our minds are limited. Still there is ONE mind, as it reads in my signature, and some of us humans can see more of this, or the entirety.
(Edited by mystic light)
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Peter_McWeeter
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Posted March 20th, 2007 02:50 IP
Direct experience vs Faith
That really is a whole new topic on it's own...
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ev
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Posted March 20th, 2007 12:04 IP
A bot writing program is a program that can seem to write in correspondense to you, they have become very sophisicated following general language rules and can deceive people into thinking they are reacting with a human, although they are limited and the deception rarely lasts long.
I have searched desperately to define what is, what death is, what heaven is, i have beleived in spirit guides, been convinced by psychics, trusted science to reveal the answers through physics, to find that all these leads have lead to confusion and expansions of theories of this and that rather than to what seems to happen here and now for me.
Please don't take this personally but I am still not convinced by clarvoyance, I just don't know, that is not that i don't beleive what you say, or don't respect your experience for i do, its more i beleive other explanations are possible rather than someone seeing into the future directly.
This seems to me to boiling down to what is the capability of the human, what is superhuman and what is supernatural. It is possible that clarvoyance is a human trait like some are doubled jointed and position their bodies in seemingly superhuman ways, i'm not sure, i'm not sure if there are any limits to the human's minds abilities, flying, telekinesis, mind reading, time manipulation, I don't know and haven't read any totally convincing evidence either way.
I've read Yogis walk through walls, not seen it, yet i have seen a man convinced that another man became invisible in front of him as the other man manipulated his mind. There was no invisibility just the man's mind was so convinced it stopped perceiving the other man was there. (Derren Brown was the other man he understands how the mind works does Derren).
Overall I don't know, i mean i really don't know and until i experience first hand i can't know, and not even then if i met Derren, I'm not even sure Niel Armstrong went to moon, we could be a computer simulation given infinity in logic this is more probable than not, I don't know.
From direct experience however i do know that anger can be lost, desire can be overcome, and mindfulness can become practice and that is enough for me, this is my path and it is probably best i keep it to myself, although sharing the possibility of being free from anger seems natural, so please forgive me.
I think we have strayed off topic again, not like us.
(Edited by ev)
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mystic light
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Posted March 20th, 2007 12:18 IP
Quote:
Peter_McWeeter wrote:
Direct experience vs Faith
That really is a whole new topic on it's own...
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True! Want to start it?
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mystic light
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Posted March 20th, 2007 13:07 IP
Quote:
ev wrote:
A bot writing program is a program that can seem to write in correspondense to you, they have become very sophisicated following general language rules and can deceive people into thinking they are reacting with a human, although they are limited and the deception rarely lasts long.
I have searched desperately to define what is, what death is, what heaven is, i have beleived in spirit guides, been convinced by psychics, trusted science to reveal the answers through physics, to find that all these leads have lead to confusion and expansions of theories of this and that rather than to what seems to happen here and now for me.
Please don't take this personally but I am still not convinced by clarvoyance, I just don't know, that is not that i don't beleive what you say, or don't respect your experience for i do, its more i beleive other explanations are possible rather than someone seeing into the future directly.
This seems to me to boiling down to what is the capability of the human, what is superhuman and what is supernatural. It is possible that clarvoyance is a human trait like some are doubled jointed and position their bodies in seemingly superhuman ways, i'm not sure, i'm not sure if there are any limits to the human's minds abilities, flying, telekinesis, mind reading, time manipulation, I don't know and haven't read any totally convincing evidence either way.
I've read Yogis walk through walls, not seen it, yet i have seen a man convinced that another man became invisible in front of him as the other man manipulated his mind. There was no invisibility just the man's mind was so convinced it stopped perceiving the other man was there. (Derren Brown was the other man he understands how the mind works does Derren).
Overall I don't know, i mean i really don't know and until i experience first hand i can't know, and not even then if i met Derren, I'm not even sure Niel Armstrong went to moon, we could be a computer simulation given infinity in logic this is more probable than not, I don't know.
From direct experience however i do know that anger can be lost, desire can be overcome, and mindfulness can become practice and that is enough for me, this is my path and it is probably best i keep it to myself, although sharing the possibility of being free from anger seems natural, so please forgive me.
I think we have strayed off topic again, not like us.
(Edited by ev)
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Quote:
A bot writing program is a program that can seem to write in correspondense to you, they have become very sophisicated following general language rules and can deceive people into thinking they are reacting with a human, although they are limited and the deception rarely lasts long. |
Ah! Thanks! Ro-bot? Memory is returning...Have they developped clairvoyant ones yet? :lol:
Quote:
I have searched desperately to define what is, what death is, what heaven is, i have beleived in spirit guides, been convinced by psychics, trusted science to reveal the answers through physics, to find that all these leads have lead to confusion and expansions of theories of this and that rather than to what seems to happen here and now for me. |
Okay that explains a lot. You had an inner insecurity and followed somebody only to feel decieved afterwards. Once bitten, twice shy, perhaps.
But believe me: Don't carry old potatoes around with you.(Story in the master and disciple thread)
And of course I'm not trying to lecture you with this..
In my case I had to discover it all pretty much by myself and read a confirmation of my thoughts later on by Buddha or Lao Tze, some I knew, some was new.
Quote:
Please don't take this personally but I am still not convinced by clarvoyance, I just don't know, that is not that i don't beleive what you say, or don't respect your experience for i do, its more i beleive other explanations are possible rather than someone seeing into the future directly. |
No, no, no, ((ev)) <<--ooops, there we have it again, ( me good bot, huh? )
no, why should I be offended! It doesn't change my world. Whatever you are willing to invite into your world is entirely your choice, and I understand how hard it is to believe something one has not experienced himself.
I was no exception to the rule, btw. I find it kinda hard to believe what others have experienced as well, often times.
But I had to correct my disbelief too often meanwhile to not have become more open to what others tell me.
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i'm not sure if there are any limits to the human's minds abilities, flying, telekinesis, mind reading, time manipulation, I don't know and haven't read any totally convincing evidence either way. |
Because it's reading, ev, hearsay. First hand experience is the magic tool, or faith in somebody you trust.
Actually you are now using the "sceptical mind " approach of Roshi. Scepticism protects one, just watch it again...
But faith requires humbleness and acknowledging another's experience which is tantamount to submission to most and thus inconvenient to the power-loving average John Doe. And there are false Gurus ...
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i have seen a man convinced that another man became invisible in front of him as the other man manipulated his mind. There was no invisibility just the man's mind was so convinced it stopped perceiving the other man was there. |
Yes, but that is something else. This is showing what suggestion can do.
I don't know how anymore direct it can get than to have contact with somebody who has access to mind realms we all have but don't find access to or don't want to accept.
To accept there is more between the heavens and earth than we can dream of is a humbling experience for the over-anal-ising intellectual with insufficient access to his other, more intuitive brain-half, imo. (Did you take the test in the entertainment section? Left-brained , rightbrained? )
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From direct experience however i do know that anger can be lost, desire can be overcome, and mindfulness can become practice |
Yes, same here.
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this is my path and it is probably best i keep it to myself, although sharing the possibility of being free from anger seems natural, so please forgive me. |
I know this feeling very well too, and actually it is a truth : To share something with a mind that is not ready for a truth may not be beneficial to either one participating, and so is kept until the mind is ready to accept it, = then the cup is empty so it can take in something new.
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ev
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Posted March 20th, 2007 15:26 IP
I was walking today, i thought of buddha appearing on the side of the road and asked what would i do?
Some would say kill him for he is an illusion, you could would consider shaking his hand for revealing the possibility, i don't know, shake his hand or kill him, so i decided it would be best to just pass him by as he'd probably be meditating, he never appeared to test the theory, i suspect i have would run over and hugged him if he had appeared, not sure i'd recognise him though.
What blocks clarvoyance always mind or is it only thing for certain humans by chance?
All other traits seem to be universal just differing by levels of apparent competence so is clarvoyance available to all just not detected or practiced?
I've felt deep empathy to someone feelings but never known thought though, although seeing the possibility, when tested for me nothing doing although of course i might just have no idea what i'm doing, that seems to be general case these days, and i have no idea what anything is either, life is good.
I don't know I, just don't know..................no i, i, how close does clarvoyance need to be?
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mystic light
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Posted March 20th, 2007 15:46 IP
Quote:
ev wrote:
I was walking today, i thought of buddha appearing on the side of the road and asked what would i do?
Some would say kill him for he is an illusion, you could would consider shaking his hand for revealing the possibility, i don't know, shake his hand or kill him, so i decided it would be best to just pass him by as he'd probably be meditating, he never appeared to test the theory, i suspect i have would run over and hugged him if he had appeared, not sure i'd recognise him though.
What blocks clarvoyance always mind or is it only thing for certain humans by chance?
All other traits seem to be universal just differing by levels of apparent competence so is clarvoyance available to all just not detected or practiced?
I've felt deep empathy to someone feelings but never known thought though, although seeing the possibility, when tested for me nothing doing although of course i might just have no idea what i'm doing, that seems to be general case these days, and i have no idea what anything is either, life is good.
I don't know I, just don't know..................no i, i, how close does clarvoyance need to be?
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Interesting what you say here, ev...
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I've felt deep empathy to someone feelings but never known thought though, |
I can understand you very well, here, because my compassion for others went so far as a child that I often didn't say things because I was so AFRAID to hurt somebody. This appeared to me the biggest sacrileg.
How is it with thoughts, however for you? Have you ever been in a situation where you could tell from the face or the bodylanguage of somebody what another was thinking?
Where you good at knowing the same over the phone from the voice, from small hesitancies?
Did you ever hear the phone ringing and you KNEW who's calling, even though it was somebody totally unexpected?
This interests me very much.
Oh, I found this:
Two monks were watching a flag flapping in the wind. One said to the other, "The flag is moving."
The other replied, "The wind is moving."
Huineng overheard this. He said, "Not the flag, not the wind; mind is moving."
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ev
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Posted March 20th, 2007 16:21 IP
I must say i have a reasonably good idea what **** is thinking sometimes and we communicate with no words often, (wife), although that is 12 years daily contact, i sometimes think i know on the phone thing but its far from consistent, i had lucid dreaming when a child and that was wierd knowing you are dreaming in a dream, can't really remember what happened other than i was aware in a dream that i was dreaming.....
mind is moving.
not deliberately though.
does mind have overall awareness?
I don't know,
that thought seems to create a god for me, a seperation,
where as it seems more like a collaborative effort,
then that makes no sense either,
no one or the other,
both and neither,
can the rules be bent?
I'm not convinced by miracles although if one did occur i would think i'd possibly gone abnormal in the head, you know if water suddenly turned to wine on volition i'd think i was dreaming or hallucinating unless someone else confirmed it close by, then there are mass hallucinations, the native indians somewhere never perceived the spanish ships on the horizon as no such thing existed for them, apparently, huge stones carried up mountains, the temples in Peru, INCA, pyramids of cuba, cities of japan, incredible constructions in remote places, the world is a wierd place, then i rest on don't know, arrgh.
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mystic light
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Posted March 20th, 2007 16:33 IP
Quote:
does mind have overall awareness?
I don't know,
that thought seems to create a god for me, a seperation |
Why would the notion of an overall aware mind create the thought of a God for you and why would this thought create a separation?
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ev
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Posted March 20th, 2007 16:48 IP
it seems to create one mind aware, create a one and always create an other, isn't that the way of mind??
Seems that way, of course i'm not sure, just seems that way.
It seems more we are all mind,
everything is mind,
just not one mind,
one mind is self or god,
no one mind is,
mind.
Not saying that is right just the way it seems.
(Edited by ev)
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mystic light
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Posted March 20th, 2007 17:56 IP
What do you think of this?
The Buddha and all sentient beings
are nothing but expressions of the one
mind. There is nothing else.~ Huang Po
Seems to me a bit like the comparison of us being like facets of a diamond.
You know what I mean?
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ev
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Posted March 20th, 2007 19:32 IP
Yeah, same song sheet,
the diamond is empty of diamond
yet all is diamond.
Nothing but diamond,
diamond mind,
a hard gem to crack.
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ev
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Posted March 21st, 2007 11:54 IP
This reminds me of Ned something who wrote "diamond mind" meditation quide, and in that a monk is quoted as saying smiling something like "diamond mind thats a hard gem to crack" when asked opinion on the title, unfortunately the book is in the library, Ned's book is one i found helpful so when mystic light said diamond, diamond mind immediately came to mind, as did the monks quote, i always liked the truth of a real diamond being hard to crack.
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Peter_McWeeter
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Posted March 21st, 2007 15:41 IP
How can there be one mind?
Everything is impermanent, even this 'one mind'.
So it can't be 'one' and it can't be seperate.
If we were to say it was seperate and one then wouldn't we be talking about Hinduism?
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ev
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Posted March 21st, 2007 16:57 IP
Hi Peter,
I agree and what i was trying to say with this,
It seems more we are all mind,
everything is mind,
just not one mind,
one mind is self or god,
no one mind is,
mind.
We are all what is,
what is is all of us,
what is is never one,
there is no one,
on any level,
one is a concept,
not what is,
and what is holds no concept of one,
it is just what is,
And that is beyond concept.
No words can do what is justice.
This is how it seems to me.
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mystic light
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Posted March 21st, 2007 17:16 IP
Quote:
Peter_McWeeter wrote:
How can there be one mind?
Everything is impermanent, even this 'one mind'.
So it can't be 'one' and it can't be seperate.
If we were to say it was seperate and one then wouldn't we be talking about Hinduism?
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No, not about Hinduism, Pete
Baghavad gita:
"'But higher than this unmanifest
is another ancient unmanifest essence
which in the perishing of all beings does not perish.
Thus the eternal unmanifest is called the supreme goal,
which attaining they do not return.
This is my supreme abode.
This supreme Spirit, Partha, is to be attained
by undivided devotion, within which beings exist,
by which all this universe is pervaded.
'By my unmanifest form this whole universe is pervaded.
All beings are situated in me, and not I situated in them.
And beings are not situated in me.
Look at my majestic yoga, sustaining beings
and not staying in beings, my soul becoming beings.
As the great omnipresent wind is eternally staying in space,
so all beings stay in me.
Consider this.
"'All beings, Kaunteya,
go to my nature at the end of an era;
at the beginning of an era I send them forth again.
Embracing my own nature I send forth again and again
this whole powerless multitude of beings
by the power of nature.
And these actions do not bind me, wealth winner,
sitting indifferently unattached to these actions.
With me as supervisor nature produces
the animate and inanimate;
by this cause, Kaunteya, the universe revolves.
"'The deluded despise me, the assumed human form,
not knowing my higher essence, the great Lord of beings.
Vain hopes, vain actions, vain thoughtless knowledge
resort to fiendish and demonic deluded nature.
"'But great souls resorting to me, the divine nature,
their undivided minds are devoted to knowing
the imperishable source of being.
Always glorifying me and striving with firm resolve
and honoring me with devotion, they worship ever united.
"'And by the knowledge sacrifice also
others sacrificing worship me,
by oneness, by multiplicity, diversely, omnisciently.
I am the ritual; I am the sacrifice; offering am I;
I am the medicinal herb; the mantra am I;
I am clarified butter; I am fire; I am the oblation.
"'I am the father of this universe, mother, supporter,
grandfather, what is to be known, purifier, sacred AUM,
the Rig, Sama, and Yajur Vedas,
the goal, sustainer, Lord, witness, home, refuge, friend,
the origin, dissolution, state, treasury, seed eternal.
I radiate heat; I withhold and send forth rain;
immortality and death, and truth and untruth am I, Arjuna.
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mystic light
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Posted March 21st, 2007 17:17 IP
More here: Bhagavad-Gita
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ev
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Posted March 21st, 2007 18:12 IP
Bottom line is there an overall sentience for what is, the dao, arjuna, god, mind, big mind, buddha mind, nirvana, the way, whatever term of endearment we choose to like?
For me there isn't and to me it doesn't matter if there is for you or anyone else, what what is is beyond my description for me and for me to derive an overall sentience creates a conception and to me what is beyond conepts.
This is just how it is for me.
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mystic light
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Posted March 21st, 2007 18:18 IP
How does this resonate with you?
The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
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http://schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/ |
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ev
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Posted March 21st, 2007 21:55 IP
The tao can not be defined it just is, just not a conceivable is, name it and it isn't that, this seems as is to me.
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mystic light
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Posted March 21st, 2007 22:13 IP
 Fine . I think it can be felt, but not named.
Now it continues like this:
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
The named is the mother of myriad things
Makes sense?
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http://schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/ |
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ev
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Posted March 22nd, 2007 09:00 IP
define dao and open the realm of imagination for close inspection.
Make sense?
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mystic light
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Posted March 22nd, 2007 09:45 IP
Lao Tze didn't call it imagination...
Translation Schmidt:
Whoever free from attachment looks inward with detachment attains the vision of the Unmanifest;
whoever is ego-bound and clings to greed sees but the outer show.
The Manifest and the Unmanifest although different in nameare one in essence
This unity is the mystery of the Tao the unfathomable of the primordial ground the starting point of all manifestation..
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http://schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/ |
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ev
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Posts: 693
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Posted March 22nd, 2007 10:37 IP
create tao,
create the myriad of things in tao,
don't create tao,
be tao.
tao is everything and nothing,
apart from any tao imagined.
A mind still,
works beyond conception.
This how it seems to me.
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ev
Member
Posts: 693
Registered: Jan 2007 |
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Posted March 22nd, 2007 14:24 IP
Mystic asked,
Quote:
Did you take the test in the entertainment section? Left-brained , rightbrained? |
50:50 not left or right.
:shrug2:
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Lotus Buddhism Forum :: :: Zen :: Genpo Roshi's Big Mind
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