riv:::
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Posted February 23rd, 2008 13:31 IPI've noticed that many members have some background or interest in modern psychology. I wanted to start a thread where we can share some of what we know-- ideas, models and theories-- that been useful to us in relation to our spiritual journeys.
I'll start by sharing this link which summarizes John Rowan's theory of subpersonalities, and talks about how it relates to similar ideas put forth by Transactional Analysis, Carl Jung, Hal Stone, Fritz Perls and others. The idea put forward here is that there is no one singular ego self, rather each of us has within our minds a number of unique personality patterns, each completely different from the others, that are activated depending upon the nature of the contexts and situations we find ourselves in.
These personality patterns are what sometimes make our lives (and spiritual journeys) difficult. We identify with these patterns, think of them as "me" which makes it harder to get in touch with our spiritual core, which is much quieter, sometimes harder to recognize and connect with. We may also find ourselves in battle with others because of the subpersonality patterns that rise up within them. Most relationships involve a constant dancing and arising of these various patterns, sometimes harmoniously, sometimes not...
Our various ways of being and acting are often crystallized into behavior patterns, or "subpersonalities." Because being sweet is often useful, for example, we develop a sweet little girl or boy personality. Our sense of identity gets temporarily attached to that way of being, and we think that is all we are. For a period of time, we think and feel and act as if being sweet were the only option available to us. We become trapped in a worldview (the world is threatening and I must be sweet to avoid punishment) and a personal identification (I am someone who is always sweet, never grouchy), both of which limit our freedom. ~Molly Brown
The many roles we play in the world are subpersonalities. In one setting my behavior is that of the polished, dignified, and capable professional; in another setting I am the kind, gentle, and joyful parent celebrating the delight of my children. My body posture and movement, my voice and vocabulary are different as I play each role. Yet these roles are not external to me, they are who I am. ~Gretchen Sliker
John Rowan identified six broad sources of our subpersonalities. These may be seen as fairly comprehensive, although I will also present a couple of other viewpoints within his definitions. The first source is our social roles. We all have different selves we present to the world, what Jungians might call personas, and what some others call masks. These are the easiest subs for most of us to identify and can be an easy way into discovering our deeper subs. Whether we are a father, a mother, a son, a daughter, an employee, a friend or anything else, each of these are distinct subpersonalities for many of us. For example, I am a different person as a friend, a blogger, a lover, or a trainer. In fact, some of my coworkers refer to me as the "terminator" because of the way I carry myself, how I look, and my level of discipline. But my closest friends would not recognize me in this way at all. ~William Harryman
mystic light
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Posted February 23rd, 2008 13:51 IPI have read it this morning, Chris, and I think it is a great way to understand oneself and others better.
Why do I like XY or FG so much? Because he has this powerful subpersona "wise Guru", or " fearless hero" , or "Mr. Romantic?"
But woe is me when I push the button that activates the hurt little boy or the rebellious teenager!
The problem for me was so far, that it's sometimes hard to not become overwhelmed with a particular role, and forget the complex reality.
I also feel reminded of the Sufi goal to leave all those subpersonas behind:
"Be nothing, so you can be all. "
http://schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/
riv:::
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Quote: mystic light wrote:
I have read it this morning, Chris, and I think it is a great way to understand oneself and others better.
Why do I like XY or FG so much? Because he has this powerful subpersona "wise Guru", or " fearless hero" , or "Mr. Romantic?"
But woe is me when I push the button that activates the hurt little boy or the rebellious teenager!
The problem for me was so far, that it's sometimes hard to not become overwhelmed with a particular role, and forget the complex reality.
I also feel reminded of the Sufi goal to leave all those subpersonas behind:
"Be nothing, so you can be all. "
Well, yes! And that's it *exactly*....
This is the challenge most of us must deal with, day to day, in our human relationships. I think this is why people turn to religions to find peace. The great spiritual traditions tell us we are not our limited social selves and personalities. There is the spark of the divine within us. Sometimes called Love, Awareness, Spirit, Soul, Atman... very quiet, very peaceful.
This is why we are instructed to pray, do yoga, repeat a mantra, meditate, do tai chi, walking meditation. Each of these is a method, a spiritual strategy, for quieting the noisy patterns of the mind, cause that is the only way the wisdom of the spirit can be heard...
:heart:
mystic light
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Posted February 23rd, 2008 14:34 IPOh, excellent! Maybe all this monkey chatter in the mind is coming from all those personas talking to each other, and --
I just realize you already said this. :blow:
http://schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/
Mr._Opporknockity
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Quote: riv::: wrote:
I've noticed that many members have some background or interest in modern psychology. I wanted to start a thread where we can share some of what we know-- ideas, models and theories-- that been useful to us in relation to our spiritual journeys.
Fantastic Idea!!! Thanks so much for thinking of it.
I'm heading out to record a radio show for about 2 hours or so, but I'll respond when I get back!
There are so many overlaps in these areas - the truth wears many clothes. :rock:
These aren't the Droids we're looking for. Go on about your business.
bigyouth
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Posted February 23rd, 2008 18:14 IP I think having different subpersonalities is natural to the various situation that make up a persons complex life. Almost like the clothes you wear for different events and climates.
I've accidently mixed my subpersonalities at times to humorous ends. Being an understanding and affectionate father my voice is different at home than at work. One early morning on a construction site I softly said to an employee "Sweetheart would you mind moving that stone" to which the whole site turned and looked at me in shock before we all started laughing...
"love and you will be open
seek and you will find
wisdom is found in the simplist of places
in the nick of time"
riv:::
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Posted February 24th, 2008 01:16 IPYeah, that's "all of us," exactly, lol. We shift personality patterns throughout the day, and can be creative about it when we wish to, sometimes it just happens spontaneously. When I first met my wife, over 20 years ago, one of the things that impressed me about her was that she could get herself out of a funk pretty easily, switch her mindset. Prior to her most of the women I had relationships with tended to get "stuck" in a negative mindset for extended periods.
As we come to recognize these different states of the self as temporary personas, and are able to identify with (and anchor our minds in) our spiritual center, I think life gets much easier. We realize how we are actors, everyone is just playing roles, drama like.
:blow:
Mr._Opporknockity
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Posted February 24th, 2008 06:27 IPThe subpersonality that I'm in most of the time, at home and at work is "entertainer". I loosen people up and try to get them to laugh, with odd voices or puns or quirky commentary. It usually works, if it seems it's becoming tiring or it's too much I switch it off.
I've done this soooooo much and it's served me so well that my more serious side just seems foreign to me. Not always, but the other persona is so much more natural, mischievous and fun. Then I'll go to a movie or a play and cry at the end, (or in the middle) and I know I'm more than that.
I see my oldest daughter going through this very same incarnation . . . . a lot of rewards for being glib and clever . . . she's got the gift too.
These aren't the Droids we're looking for. Go on about your business.
riv:::
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Posted February 24th, 2008 07:31 IPThe personas serve a purpose. And one's that recieve "positive feedback" are reinforced. While not exactly "personality patterns" per say, every skill and talent that we've developed is also a specific pyschological state that we have constructed over the years, thru practice and repetition. My oldest son is the "baseball player"... my youngest "the artist"... exhibiting wonderful talents in these areas, while in reality each of them showed just as much potential as the other at an early age in either drawing or baseball, music, lots of areas. Over time they mastered the "arts" that interested them. What's practiced is perfected.
A few years ago, while writing a paper on language acquisition, I came across some interesting data on MRI imaging and PET scans. I found actual images of what the brain looks like when someone is reading, listening, speaking and thinking in English. In language ed we call these the "Four Skills" of language, and each has a specific psychological pattern. I was able to just now locate one of them on the Internet...
Every subpersonality pattern, every single skill we've developed has a specific brain pattern, specific state, which joins together several different areas- visual, emotional, memory. And these are shifting all through the day, like a kaleidoscope...
Its been said that humans only use about 10% of their brains. That's an incomplete assessment based on initial glimpses at images like this. Actually, most people only use 10-30% of their brains at any given moment. But over the course of the day we each probably end up using a much higher percentage.
Tim Leary used to say that the day will come when people learn how to control and program their brains. I think these kinds of understandings can be helpful, especially if you are doing meditative exercises that improve your concentration, ability to consciously control where your mind, and emotions, go.
:heart:
mystic light
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Posted February 24th, 2008 08:41 IPOdd coinncidence. I just lost a post that I wasn't 100 % sure of posting.
I hit "reply or "submit", and it vanished. Wow.
Anyways. Yes, I believe that the roles that are"successful" get reinforced.
This also implies the importance of who we deal with, cause they reinforce either positive or negative roles. Of course that is not a one way street, and any role we adopt affects the people we are with as well.
http://schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/
riv:::
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Posted February 25th, 2008 00:53 IPYep. And clearly, when we invite people into our life who push our buttons (activate certain quirky roles, defensiveness, etc) there must be a reason, something we needed to learn from jumping into these dramas with them.
Seeing it all as a drama, that we have chosen in order to learn something with fellow souls, our sisters and brothers, can be really helpful. The key thing seems to be that we come to dis-identify with the motivations, desires and inner voices of our limited self patterns, and identify instead with a deeper part of ourselves, the radiate awareness that we are, our fundamental and primary identity...
our core inner wisdom...
:heart:
mystic light
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Quote: riv::: wrote:
Yep. And clearly, when we invite people into our life who push our buttons (activate certain quirky roles, defensiveness, etc) there must be a reason, something we needed to learn from jumping into these dramas with them.
Seeing it all as a drama, that we have chosen in order to learn something with fellow souls, our sisters and brothers, can be really helpful. The key thing seems to be that we come to dis-identify with the motivations, desires and inner voices of our limited self patterns, and identify instead with a deeper part of ourselves, the radiate awareness that we are, our fundamental and primary identity...
our core inner wisdom...
:heart:
Quote: And clearly, when we invite people into our life who push our buttons (activate certain quirky roles, defensiveness, etc) there must be a reason, something we needed to learn from jumping into these dramas with them.
I know what you're getting at.... but I don't really like drama kings and queens. Online they can fool me once, twice, even 5 times, but then I'd rather back off, just like in real life. But you often can't. They pull you into a complicated world, and and you don't really want to.
Of all the real life friends only 2 are a bit more difficult. They are due to very sad childhood experiences. The rest are open, harmless, cheerful and very consistent people. With those there is little chance of something "dark" lurking in the shadow, which unexpectedly jumps into the light, and surprises the hell out of you.
And what also comes into the picture is, that with each new person you get to see the best sides first. You make friends with a few amiable roles they play and eventually you also have to get to know the rest of the "family, " those roles that are kept in a closet.....
Now you have the choice if it's worth the trouble to put up with those little gangstas, cause they have such a nice family you get along with so great.
I guess once you are fed up enough with trouble you say "bye!" to the good sides too.
Or if you only get to see the gangstas for too long.
You see, we all have a few gangstas, but some of us can cultivate them into decent fellas. Lets say you have this fella "anger" inside of you, but you spend time on his cultivation, and he is less and less angry, less and less provocable, he is well integrated into the rest of the "family"
The more he has to do with them, the more it rubs off on him. But when he comes into bad company, he is in danger.
(Edited by mystic light)
http://schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/
riv:::
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Posted February 25th, 2008 12:17 IPWell, I agree with you to a certain extent. In our real lives most of us tend to break connections with people who push too many of our buttons. That is, until you meet someone who seems "perfect" - exchange rings, and make a life-time pledge to love honor and cherish until death pulls you apart.
Ask anyone who is married 5 plus years. You meet the family, the gangsta, the critic, the loud-mouth brat, the whiner, the liar, the narcisist, etc. Everyone comes with a different cast of characters, but once you make that commitment the two of you are thrown into a room together, and its not always pretty.
So you learn to negotiate, to hold back, to defend, to attack, to manipulate. You have a few kids, and before you know it you've got a whole circus going! (If you're lucky). Some folks end up playing war of the roses, fatal attraction, bridges over madison county, eyes wide shut... You name the movie, its been played many times over...
Now, is it worth it? Many of us wonder if it might be better to stay single, be able to form relationships freely and break up with people who rub you the wrong way...
Thing is (and you might disagree with me, Anna) I don't think we can avoid getting into conflict situations with people, that we form connections with. Its unavoidable. If its not happening with a romantic relationship it will happen at work, or with a neighbor, or online.
Why? Cause its good for us. We need to be "rubbed the wrong way" to progress, spiritually.
In my opinion.
:heart:
mystic light
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Posted February 25th, 2008 13:13 IPAnd I have to agree with you, totally. You made me smile, and yes, it's even about loving the whole 'cosmic' family. Absolutely, and yes, with arms wide open.
"Fighting with compassion, then victory! "
I Ching 64/5:
And just as the sun shines forth in redoubled beauty after rain, or as a forest grows more freshly green from charred ruins after a fire, so the new era appears all the more glorious by contrast with the misery of the old.
http://schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/
riv:::
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Quote: mystic light wrote:
And I have to agree with you, totally. You made me smile, and yes, it's even about loving the whole 'cosmic' family. Absolutely, and yes, with arms wide open.
"Fighting with compassion, then victory! "
I Ching 64/5:
And just as the sun shines forth in redoubled beauty after rain, or as a forest grows more freshly green from charred ruins after a fire, so the new era appears all the more glorious by contrast with the misery of the old.
Its like, at a certain point, life becomes a dance...
when all the different voices, once out of sync,
come into harmony...
:namaste:
mystic light
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Posted February 25th, 2008 17:16 IP"Thank you , for letting us be ourselves!"
Hey, that is such a magic truth....
http://schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/
riv:::
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Posted February 28th, 2008 14:29 IP~~*(((( :P )))*~~
Mr._Opporknockity
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Quote: riv::: wrote:
Now, is it worth it? Many of us wonder if it might be better to stay single, be able to form relationships freely and break up with people who rub you the wrong way...
Thing is (and you might disagree with me, Anna) I don't think we can avoid getting into conflict situations with people, that we form connections with. Its unavoidable. If its not happening with a romantic relationship it will happen at work, or with a neighbor, or online.
Why? Cause its good for us. We need to be "rubbed the wrong way" to progress, spiritually.
In my opinion.
:heart:
Well I think that there are certain things about ourselves that we would never discover were it not for a close, in-tight relationship over the long haul. How adaptable we are, how patient, how compassionate with the same person over time, how forgiving are we. . . . same stuff you learn about yourself by raising kids. Having said that, people who remain single learn certain things that married people don't learn, about being alone, being self-sufficient, being resourceful, at peace, benefiting from solitude.
If you run away from being single BY getting married, you won't learn those lessons . . . . if you run away from being married BY getting single again, you won't learn those.
If you are led to be married you will grow in that role . . . if you aren't, you grow in the single role.
These aren't the Droids we're looking for. Go on about your business.
Quote: If you run away from being single BY getting married, you won't learn those lessons . . . . if you run away from being married BY getting single again, you won't learn those.
If you are led to be married you will grow in that role . . . if you aren't, you grow in the single role.
We may also grow in both roles.
I don't think we can escape the lessons that we are supposed to learn in this life.
In a numerological analysis of your name and birthdate you may find, for instance, that in this life you will be forced to be selfemployed, to learn how that is.
I believe in rebirth and that the life we live is what we 'chose', so that we can work on our perfection, and to come back to your statement, many of us will lead both versions in the course of their lives.
Even a happy marriage ends, one day.
Hope that's not offending anybody. And I don't think I'm telling you anything new of course.
Mr._Opporknockity
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Quote: Abraxas wrote:
We may also grow in both roles.
I don't think we can escape the lessons that we are supposed to learn in this life. . . . .
. . . . and to come back to your statement, many of us will lead both versions in the course of their lives.
Even a happy marriage ends, one day.
Yes, I agree, and that's a wonderful way to put it. There are married people everywhere who don't ever learn anything about what it truly means to live with another person and be adaptable over time. The marriage relationship goes through all these challenging phases and levels, from hot romance to domestic partners, co-planners, affectionate caregivers, patient counselors, and bounces around between them all.
I see people disillusioned by the end of the "hot romance" phase and just give up and go on to the next adventure with the next partner . . . . same thing with being single. The people I see who are at the most peace with their situation are those who have discovered what you shared above. Single or married they are not "trying to escape the lessons of this life time".
These aren't the Droids we're looking for. Go on about your business.
riv:::
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Posted March 1st, 2008 15:33 IPGood thoughts, my friends.
but I don't really like drama kings and queens. Online they can fool me once, twice, even 5 times, but then I'd rather back off, just like in real life. But you often can't. They pull you into a complicated world, and and you don't really want to. 
