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Philosophy : An obligation to walk the talk.....? |
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mystic light
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 Posted February 12th, 2008 13:30 IP   
For instance, Buddha also said; Only have the best people for friends.
And he is right of course. Of what value is a friend, who goes on about the value of compassion, of helping a friend, but doesn't do it himself?
He is worse than an enemy, and do you know why? Because with an enemy you know exactly what to expect.
A false friend is a bad surprise at the worst moment.
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Ed Akehurst
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Posted February 12th, 2008 13:31 IP
Quote:
apostrophes wrote:
I think people ought to take that responsibility, but I'd not for a moment try forcing that responsibility on others.
I think they ought because hackneyed attempts at teaching can cause damage. I can only hope they'll read the philosophy and get for themselves that they need to purify their own spring before asking others to drink from it.
Richard
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Worded as "hope" I am in absolute complete agreement.
Worded as "should" "ought" "obligation" "responsibility" makes no sense to me.
I see where you are coming from, I think. i do agree with that, but the original thread seemed to imply there was an obligation, which is what I was responding to.
thanks for your clarification. We are not as far apart in our reply as I at first thought.
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"Bye and Bye comes the Great Awakening, and we find that this life is really a great dream...Then we are embraced in Obliterating Unity. There is a perfect adaptation to whatever may happen - and so we complete our alotted span." - Chuang Tzu, ch.11 |
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Ed Akehurst
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Posted February 12th, 2008 13:37 IP
Quote:
mystic light wrote:
Of what value is a friend, who goes on about the value of compassion, of helping a friend, but doesn't do it himself?
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He is, of course, of no value. As a friend.
That does not mean that his interest in the topic of compassion is of no value.
He can certainly be interested in the topic of compassion without practicing it. That only means is is without compassion. It does not mean he should not read and study and learn about it.
At some point down the road, that same person may read the same thing for the thousandth time and say, "OH! I see! I can do this, too!" At that time (and not possibly before) is any responsibility in existence. Once he sees it for himself, it is still not a responsibility because at that time it will be a realization and it will not appear as a responsibility, but something that comes naturally to him.
If we were to tell him to stop reading or taking an interest in the subject matter because at this moment in time he is not acting on it, then he might never get there.
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"Bye and Bye comes the Great Awakening, and we find that this life is really a great dream...Then we are embraced in Obliterating Unity. There is a perfect adaptation to whatever may happen - and so we complete our alotted span." - Chuang Tzu, ch.11 |
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mystic light
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Posted February 12th, 2008 13:42 IP
Quote:
Ed Akehurst wrote:
I just don't get it. Just because someone is interested in something cannot (to my mind at least) possibly mean that they have any responsibility to move that interest from a mental, contemplative interest into physical action. They can if they want, but I cannot possibly figure out how any responsibility could be attached to it.
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Ed, the responsilbilty I take over for applying truths that I realize as valid and as deficient in myself is a voluntary decision.
I think it depends on the intention.
If I am just a little curious, and read around, of course nobody can force me to diligently apply what's written in there.
The trurning point comes when I think: Wow. This is true.
Then I believe that a noble person will strive to become or act in that way, if it is not already a default mode by now. That's what Taoists call "cultivation." TTC54
And only I can either dismiss what I read as rubbish, or dismiss a truth I realize as too inaccessible.
Only I can make that decision.
But others can decide within themslves by watching me, if the respect I often go on about is also present in my actions, or mostly, seldom or never.
There is no doubt others will come to conclusions about that, and I endeavour to satisfy.
It is for my benefit even more than for theirs!
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Ed Akehurst
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Posted February 12th, 2008 13:46 IP
Quote:
mystic light wrote:
Ed, the responsilbilty I take over for applying truths that I realize as valid and as deficient in myself is a voluntary decision.
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I agree with that, but the title of this thread, and what I have been replying to, speaks of an "obligation" not a "voluntary decision". The two are completely separate concepts. Either you have an obligation or you don't. Whether you make a voluntary decision has no bearing on whether it is an obligation or not.
Perhaps we are just going on about semantics and language.
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"Bye and Bye comes the Great Awakening, and we find that this life is really a great dream...Then we are embraced in Obliterating Unity. There is a perfect adaptation to whatever may happen - and so we complete our alotted span." - Chuang Tzu, ch.11 |
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apostrophes
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Posted February 12th, 2008 13:48 IP
Let me put it another way:
Ed, you're a straight-talking honest guy as far as I can tell. Your spring is on full display. So if I am invited to drink from it I already know how pure it is and whether or not I want to accept. (I would actually.)
But there are those who hide their spring behind a veil. They do their best to make you think the impurities the infect the springs of others do not infect theirs. And if people plunge in they might well come back up looking like a bog monster.
That's why I am wary of those who speak to me as if they have swallowed a sutra.
Richard
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I dedicate this post to those words that were deleted in the making of it. |
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Ed Akehurst
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Posted February 12th, 2008 13:50 IP
Quote:
apostrophes wrote:
Let me put it another way:
Ed, you're a straight-talking honest guy as far as I can tell. Your spring is on full display. So if I am invited to drink from it I already know how pure it is and whether or not I want to accept. (I would actually.)
But there are those who hide their spring behind a veil. They do their best to make you think the impurities the infect the springs of others do not infect theirs. And if people plunge in they might well come back up looking like a bog monster.
That's why I am wary of those who speak to me as if they have swallowed a sutra.
Richard
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Understood. Agreed.
Thank you for the compliment as well, that goes both ways.
Also, I truly love your phase: "Swallow a sutra" - the first time I read it, I laughed aloud!
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"Bye and Bye comes the Great Awakening, and we find that this life is really a great dream...Then we are embraced in Obliterating Unity. There is a perfect adaptation to whatever may happen - and so we complete our alotted span." - Chuang Tzu, ch.11 |
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mystic light
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Posted February 12th, 2008 13:50 IP
Quote:
Ed Akehurst wrote:
Worded as "hope" I am in absolute complete agreement.
Worded as "should" "ought" "obligation" "responsibility" makes no sense to me.
I see where you are coming from, I think. i do agree with that, but the original thread seemed to imply there was an obligation, which is what I was responding to.
thanks for your clarification. We are not as far apart in our reply as I at first thought.
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Ed, I think the words resposilbilty and obligations, as well as should and "ought to" push your buttons and cause a defensive reaction.
You agree with Richard, and I agree with Richard, then
wording may cause problems, while examples avoiding those words and using others may not cause resistance and we are all the while agreeing on the same.
Does that makes sense?
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apostrophes
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Posted February 12th, 2008 13:51 IP
Quote:
Your spring is on full display. So if I am invited to drink from it I already know how pure it is and whether or not I want to accept. (I would actually.) |
That could be taken another way now I read it again. 
Richard
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I dedicate this post to those words that were deleted in the making of it. |
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mystic light
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Posted February 12th, 2008 13:52 IP
Quote:
apostrophes wrote:
Let me put it another way:
Ed, you're a straight-talking honest guy as far as I can tell. Your spring is on full display. So if I am invited to drink from it I already know how pure it is and whether or not I want to accept. (I would actually.)
But there are those who hide their spring behind a veil. They do their best to make you think the impurities the infect the springs of others do not infect theirs. And if people plunge in they might well come back up looking like a bog monster.
That's why I am wary of those who speak to me as if they have swallowed a sutra.
Richard
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That's it. 100%.
Richard, thanks for putting it that way. Very funny too.
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Ed Akehurst
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Posted February 12th, 2008 13:53 IP
Quote:
mystic light wrote:
Ed, I think the words resposilbilty and obligations, as well as should and "ought to" push your buttons and cause a defensive reaction.
You agree with Richard, and I agree with Richard, then
wording may cause problems, while examples avoiding those words and using others may not cause resistance and we are all the while agreeing on the same.
Does that makes sense?
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Those words do cause a defensive reaction. Absolutely. They are hot buttons for me. I view those words as attempts by others to impose their will through force.
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"Bye and Bye comes the Great Awakening, and we find that this life is really a great dream...Then we are embraced in Obliterating Unity. There is a perfect adaptation to whatever may happen - and so we complete our alotted span." - Chuang Tzu, ch.11 |
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mystic light
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Posted February 12th, 2008 13:53 IP
Quote:
apostrophes wrote:
That could be taken another way now I read it again.
Richard
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Get your head out of the gutter,--or is it mine? :lol:
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Ed Akehurst
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Posted February 12th, 2008 13:54 IP
Quote:
apostrophes wrote:
That could be taken another way now I read it again.
Richard
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LOL - I was going to write, "I would drink from your spring, too" but there was NO WAY I was going to submit that after I typed it and read it! LOL
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"Bye and Bye comes the Great Awakening, and we find that this life is really a great dream...Then we are embraced in Obliterating Unity. There is a perfect adaptation to whatever may happen - and so we complete our alotted span." - Chuang Tzu, ch.11 |
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mystic light
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Posted February 12th, 2008 13:55 IP
Quote:
Ed Akehurst wrote:
Those words do cause a defensive reaction. Absolutely. They are hot buttons for me. I view those words as attempts by others to impose their will through force.
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I realized this. I know you a bit and my memory of the anarchy thread is not too ....um, what was I going to say? :lol:
But I think this is a wonderful chance for both of us to progress with each other and for ourselves.
You realize which buttons you want to sow a bit tighter or want to cut off , and I can realize how I can learn to communicate with you (even) better.
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Ed Akehurst
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Posted February 12th, 2008 13:56 IP
Quote:
mystic light wrote:
Get your head out of the gutter,--or is it mine? :lol:
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I always tell people, "Put your hands on the curb and pull yourself out of the gutter."
I forget which comedian I originally heard it from - probably Steve Martin.
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"Bye and Bye comes the Great Awakening, and we find that this life is really a great dream...Then we are embraced in Obliterating Unity. There is a perfect adaptation to whatever may happen - and so we complete our alotted span." - Chuang Tzu, ch.11 |
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apostrophes
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Posted February 12th, 2008 13:56 IP
Thanks for the laugh, fellas.
Richard
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I dedicate this post to those words that were deleted in the making of it. |
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mystic light
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Posted February 12th, 2008 13:59 IP
:lol: Thank you too.
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mystic light
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Posted February 12th, 2008 14:31 IP
Quote:
Ed Akehurst wrote:
I agree with that, but the title of this thread, and what I have been replying to, speaks of an "obligation" not a "voluntary decision". The two are completely separate concepts. Either you have an obligation or you don't. Whether you make a voluntary decision has no bearing on whether it is an obligation or not.
Perhaps we are just going on about semantics and language.
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(I'm trying to catch up with the thread....lol. ...wow, went that one fast, huh? )
Ed, it's so much fun to work with you on this.
Let me try to explain why. I realize that words cause different reactions in you and me.
For you, those words cause an inner resistance. You automatically connect force from outside with them. And why that is so, may have its roots in the past, perhaps childhood. (It may be interesting for you to investigate for yourself or discuss it here , whatever you prefer. ) Thus, you are reacting to more than this situation here, but to more.
For me, , those words cause an inner acceptance. I don't resist them. Responsibilty is a thouroughly positive word for me.
And, my first reaction is: it is a force from within.
Quote:
I agree with that, but the title of this thread, and what I have been replying to, speaks of an "obligation" not a "voluntary decision". The two are completely separate concepts. |
In my mind, those two are connected and interdependant, since that force comes from within, when I am in my default mode,- which may have to do with my past.
You see?
An example why this could be so:
As a child I had things that I was responsible for.
I was incredibly proud that I was given a very important task:
It was my responsibilty to protect my parents lunch-nap, and answer the phone after I got home from school. I would pick it up and deal with patients, and decide wether it was so urgent I recommend an ambulance or to come by at 3 pm.
It was a very important task, even life could depend on this, and to wake up Dad in vain was something I didn't want to do cause he was so tired.
But I enjoyed it. I was proud they trusted me.
It was my obligation to stay at home til they woke up, and I just did it.
You see? And that is probably why I am not defensive to the word, but positiv about it.
But I'm also reacting to more than the situation at hand.
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Ed Akehurst
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Posted February 12th, 2008 14:39 IP
But Anna what you describe is self imposed responsibility. In your original question you said does a philosophically interested person have a responsibility, which to me meant someone other than me. That is what I rail against, not the concept of responsibility itself. I have no problem with obligations. I obligate myself to things all the time. I do not cause others to oblige my will, nor do I expect them to do so against me. I also do not know where others are on their spiritual path and to tell them they have a responsibility to act out on an intellectual interest seems perverse to me, even irresponsible.
If your original question had been, "Do we feel an obligation upon ourselves to take responsibility for the philosophies we read about and put them into action?" then my answer would have been a resounding "YES!(as long as we agree with them)". That, however, was not your question. Your question was about "a philosophically interested person" which I took to mean someone other than ourselves, which is why I said "No." I do not believe we can impose obligations on others. We can only impose them on ourself.
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"Bye and Bye comes the Great Awakening, and we find that this life is really a great dream...Then we are embraced in Obliterating Unity. There is a perfect adaptation to whatever may happen - and so we complete our alotted span." - Chuang Tzu, ch.11 |
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mystic light
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Posted February 12th, 2008 15:33 IP
Quote:
Ed Akehurst wrote:
But Anna what you describe is self imposed responsibility. In your original question you said does a philosophically interested person have a responsibility, which to me meant someone other than me. That is what I rail against, not the concept of responsibility itself. I have no problem with obligations. I obligate myself to things all the time. I do not cause others to oblige my will, nor do I expect them to do so against me. I also do not know where others are on their spiritual path and to tell them they have a responsibility to act out on an intellectual interest seems perverse to me, even irresponsible.
If your original question had been, "Do we feel an obligation upon ourselves to take responsibility for the philosophies we read about and put them into action?" then my answer would have been a resounding "YES!(as long as we agree with them)". That, however, was not your question. Your question was about "a philosophically interested person" which I took to mean someone other than ourselves, which is why I said "No." I do not believe we can impose obligations on others. We can only impose them on ourself.
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But Anna what you describe is self imposed responsibility. |
Of course! Who else would have the power to impose it upon me or you?
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In your original question you said does a philosophically interested person have a responsibility, which to me meant someone other than me. |
That is how you interpreted it.
What I said was totally neutral. I was neither talking about selfimposed nor imposed by another. Just "have". Anything else, such as "from without", or "from within", was left open and is added by the individual mind.
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I have no problem with obligations. I obligate myself to things all the time. I do not cause others to oblige my will, nor do I expect them to do so against me. |
There is no doubt in my mind.
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I also do not know where others are on their spiritual path . |
Neither do i.
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and to tell them they have a responsibility to act out on an intellectual interest seems perverse to me, even irresponsible |
Who tells them what to do? 
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Ed Akehurst
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Posted February 12th, 2008 16:00 IP
Quote:
mystic light wrote:
Who tells them what to do?
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We do if we make a generalization such as "A philosophically interested person has the responsibility to..." That, to me (and yes, of course it is my interpretation) is much much different than saying, "I have the responsibility to..." or even, "It would be my hope that a philosophically interested person would at some point take on the responsibility to..."
I took the meaning I did because I do not know very many people who talk about themselves in the third person, so when I see a question phrased in the third person, I automatically assume it does not mean me, but must mean others. If it meant me, it would have been worded in the first or second person. That is perhaps why I took it that way. It is also quite possible that you may have only worded that way because English is not your native tongue.
No big deal, we now know what you meant by the question, and I think we find we are pretty much in agreement!
Peace!
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"Bye and Bye comes the Great Awakening, and we find that this life is really a great dream...Then we are embraced in Obliterating Unity. There is a perfect adaptation to whatever may happen - and so we complete our alotted span." - Chuang Tzu, ch.11 |
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mystic light
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Posted February 12th, 2008 17:56 IP
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Mr._Opporknockity
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Posted February 12th, 2008 18:07 IP
Quote:
ev wrote:
When you walk,
talk is walk.
when you talk,
walk is anything. |
"I love the way you walk,
I love the way you talk,
Suzie Q"!
~John Foggerty
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These aren't the Droids we're looking for. Go on about your business. |
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mystic light
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Posted February 12th, 2008 18:47 IP
I love this song!!!
(I thought it was by CCR?....)
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Mr._Opporknockity
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Posted February 12th, 2008 20:19 IP
Quote:
mystic light wrote:
I love this song!!!
(I thought it was by CCR?....)
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He was the lead singer and lead writer!
My favorite of their's is "Green River".
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These aren't the Droids we're looking for. Go on about your business. |
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Persephone
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Posted February 13th, 2008 00:00 IP
I, too, voted no. I think philosophy makes my life richer. I do walk the walk, however imperfectly that may be. I know that talking the talk isn't the same as walking the walk. I don't think I am responsible in any special way because I have this knowledge. I share who I am with everyone, everyday, some love me, others don't, it doesn't matter, and it doesn't change me. Philisophical people of Tao don't recruit, it is attraction rather than promotion.
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A good example is the tallest kind of preaching.
African proverb |
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mystic light
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Posted February 13th, 2008 07:15 IP
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Philisophical people of Tao don't recruit, it is attraction rather than promotion. |
Yes, Jan, but the topic is not about recruiting, it is about selfcultivation....:wacko:
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mattcoad
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Posted February 14th, 2008 03:51 IP
I agree with Ed. To me the word 'responsibility' automatically has the connetation of being externally imposed within the context where external imposition can be considered to be possible, and especially the way the question was worded.
Self-imposed responsibility I would just consider to be just simply will. Again in the context where you can be considered to have will. Unless you want to take a purely internal context where you might consider one part of your nature railing against another part of your nature, and then you might have self-imposed responsibility.
And in that context my original posting on this topic stands. Where I count 'responsibility' as being externally imposed and in this case by a trancendant authority and special as being beyond the ordinary, picked out specifically.
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mystic light
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Posted February 14th, 2008 08:05 IP
It could be a personal or national or cultural thing then, the different ways in which the word "responsibilty" resonates with our inner world.
It's highly interesting for me to observe.
It wouldn't have occurred to me to think of responsibilty coming from any other place than inside. Wow.
I also ask to see the poll question read and replied to in context with my OP.
Even as Admin unfortunately I can't reword the poll question so it causes less resistance, because resistance it does cause, and it would be interesting to explore why.
I'd also ask to please not become too nitpicking with words, --'goodwill', guys... I think after we cleared up what was meant we all know I meant inner responsibilty, cause I know of no other.
I will now take a look at the German word that I thought of:
"Verantwortung" or "Verantwortungsgefühl " mean basically the same, while the addition "gefühl" explains the word deeper. It means "feeling, emotion".
So, this being said, responsibilty in my language is a feeling. Therefor it is internal. I can only feel my own feelings. The emotions of others I can't experience directly , such as when somebody else cuts their finger mine won't bleed and report pain to the brain.
But I can feel a Verantwortung to help or I don't feel responsible.
This is why I, in my own culture, language and understanding, am used to experiencing Verantwortung/sgefühl, as an internal act alone, nothing else.
Translation issues are really interesting, as some languages don't divide between mind and heart, or thinking and feeling, as we do.
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mystic light
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Posted February 14th, 2008 08:14 IP
Quote:
Mattcoad Where I count 'responsibility' as being externally imposed and in this case by a trancendant authority . |
Matt, I think this is an example for a subcounscious (or connscious) resistance to the Abrahamic religions and their "thou shalts".
But this is added by the mind.
If we strip the word of all those cultural and religious referances that we have accumulated throughout our past and still carry with us, if we are truly able to let go of this, I think we can then begin to taste the word neutrally. I believe so, because the resistance to it I personally "witness" as a defensive reaction which comes from childhood days where many folks got things imposed upon them such as religious contents.
Some folks continue to rebel against that for the rest of their lives even though the pressure has fallen away.
More in the thread: HDP. Highly defensive people.
And don't think I am never defensive! :rolleyes:
(Edited by mystic light)
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Lotus Buddhism Forum :: :: Spirituality & Religion. :: Philosophy : An obligation to walk the talk.....?
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