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Absurdism... |
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Peter_McWeeter
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 Posted January 28th, 2007 15:51 IP   
According to Absurdism, humans historically attempt to find meaning in the universe. For some, traditionally, this search follows one of two paths: either concluding that life is meaningless and that what we have is the here-and-now; or filling the void with a purpose set forth by a higher power, often a belief in God or adherence to a religion. However, even with a spiritual power as the answer to meaning, another question is posed: What is the purpose of God? Kierkegaard believed that there is no human-comprehensible purpose of God, making faith in God absurd.
An initial reaction when faced with an existence without absolute meaning is perhaps turning to suicide as a solution when confronted with the futility of living a life devoid of all purpose, because ending life initially seems a rational reaction to its absurdity. If consciousness is extinguished, the interaction between mind and absurdity does not exist anymore. Since life must end in death, which itself gives no meaning to life ("we're all going to die so whats the pont anyway!?"), suicide seems the only means to quicken the resolution of one's ultimate fate.
However, Albert Camus, in The Myth of Sisyphus, explains suicide is not a worthwhile solution because if life is veritably absurd, then it is even more absurd to counteract it; instead, we should engage in living and reconcile the fact that we live in a world without purpose. Suicide would be equally as absurd a solution as choosing and creating a meaning or set of values. Even adopting a value system that states there are no values is a choice and thus a value system in it's own right. So logically we may as well just live and create meaning and values (despite there subjectively) rather than choose to end our lives.
The beauty that people encounter in life makes it worth living. People may create meaning in their own lives, which may not be the objective meaning of life, but still provides something for which to strive. However, he insisted that one must always maintain an ironic distance between this invented meaning and the knowledge of the absurd lest the fictitious meaning take the place of the absurd.
In a world devoid of higher meaning or judicial afterlife, man becomes absolutely free. It is through this freedom that man can act either as a mystic (through appeal to some supernatural force) or an absurd hero (through a revolt against such hope). Henceforth, the absurd hero's refusal to hope becomes his singular ability to live in the present with passion.
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laughing yogi
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Posted January 28th, 2007 16:13 IP
Nice post Pete,
I knew you were well educated but didnt realise how well read you are also.
Quote:
Peter_McWeeter wrote:
So logically we may as well just live and create meaning and values (despite there subjectively) rather than choose to end our lives.
The beauty that people encounter in life makes it worth living. People may create meaning in their own lives, which may not be the objective meaning of life, but still provides something for which to strive. However, he {Albert Camus, ed} insisted that one must always maintain an ironic distance between this invented meaning and the knowledge of the absurd lest the fictitious meaning take the place of the absurd.
In a world devoid of higher meaning or judicial afterlife, man becomes absolutely free. It is through this freedom that man can act either as a mystic (through appeal to some supernatural force) or an absurd hero (through a revolt against such hope). Henceforth, the absurd hero's refusal to hope becomes his singular ability to live in the present with passion. |
I do believe in the power of mind to influence perspective, to create the situation I percieve,
To generate meaning in life and to discover the blessed present.
please click here for a great picture
Hey, Yogi, I have put this great pic into a link as it is a bit large to comfortably read! 
(Edited by mystic light)
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Peter_McWeeter
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Posted January 28th, 2007 16:26 IP
^^love that painting...It's been my desktop picture for a month or so now.
Me well educated though? lol I totally flunked college...Let me see....2 D's an E and 2 U's (Ungraded!) No i'm no well educated at all (depending on your definition of education, i think over-education can be a very bad thing...)! Self-taught...My understanding of aburdism and existentialism is very crude, i've only begun delving into it the past couple months. Just bits and pieces off of the net to be honest...The only book I possess by Jean-Paul Sartre is an introductory book...I get the general jist of it, and must say it seems to reflect my current views...
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ev
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Posted January 28th, 2007 17:03 IP
to say life is absurd for it has no meaning that can be discyphered is an elevated veiw of conception for it may have meaning beyond conception which could never be explained or understood on the conceptual basis in which we think.
the truth of what is lies beyond conceptual based thought and description in direct experience of the current.
the purpose of life, or the why of existence are questions of self definition, i must have a purpose or life must have a purpose (making life a seperated entity), when none is known or can be known through conception.
as you say man is in the absurd situation of being something yet having no idea what that something or anything else actually is.
he can create a concept for a god or other absurd supernatural state to allow meaning for things although this is always really beyond sensible experience.
therefore we don't know what we are, why we are, when we are, or how we are, all we know is that we are, we also know that we are not and never can be seperated from everything else (this is a delusion of created self), we know we are impermanent, we know we were born and will die, yet we don't know why, might as well give up asking and as said practice being in the moment knowing that this can be only be accessed if the questions stop distracting us into this and that scenarios been and to become. We also know that if we can access the moment and interact only here and now our true nature will become apparent and we will realise we are awake and comapssion etc will be our natural way, being what we are now rather trying to define what have been or are to become, and that this leads to freedom of suffering as it our nature not to cause suffering and when we allow our nature to be in the moment suffering becomes the delusional and forgotten dream of seperation.
It therefore seems we don't need to know purpose etc more need to realise we can access our true nature and experience it directly freeing ourselfs and all those arround us of suffering induced by ourselfs and that seems enough to know.
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Peter_McWeeter
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Posted January 28th, 2007 17:22 IP
Quote:
ev wrote:
to say life is absurd for it has no meaning that can be discyphered is an elevated veiw of conception for it may have meaning beyond conception which could never be explained or understood on the conceptual basis in which we think. |
Yeah, so why struggle to find this explaination and fill the void if it's impossible for us to comprehend?
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the truth of what is lies beyond conceptual based thought and description in direct experience of the current. |
You speak of some truth beyond this absurd exsietnce, but yet there can be no absolute truth, and how do you know there is truth if it's beyond our compacity to understand, unless you have tasted this for yourself?
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as you say man is in the absurd situation of being something yet having no idea what that something or anything else actually is.
he can create a concept for a god or other absurd supernatural state to allow meaning for things although this is always really beyond sensible experience.
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Well said.
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therefore we don't know what we are, why we are, when we are, or how we are, all we know is that we are, we also know that we are not and never can be seperated from everything else (this is a delusion of created self), we know we are impermanent, we know we were born and will die, yet we don't know why, might as well give up asking and as said practice being in the moment knowing that this can be only be accessed if the questions stop distracting us into this and that scenarios been and to become. |
Yeah.
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We also know that if we can access the moment and interact only here and now our true nature will become apparent and we will realise we are awake |
True nature? That we have no true nature?
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SilentPawn
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Posted January 28th, 2007 19:22 IP
Interesting. I go at it like this:
With film pictures are taken. Pictures taken aren't worth much until they are able to be seen. Until they are seen, we never know what's really on the film. If we throw away the film before we develop the pictures, how ignorrant...?
We don't know the outcome. Even in death, we don't know what will happen. Might as well stick around and help develop film instead.
(Edited by SilentPawn)
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IapetusOcean
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Posted January 28th, 2007 19:24 IP
Quote:
Peter_McWeeter wrote:
In a world devoid of higher meaning or judicial afterlife, man becomes absolutely free. It is through this freedom that man can act either as a mystic (through appeal to some supernatural force) or an absurd hero (through a revolt against such hope). Henceforth, the absurd hero's refusal to hope becomes his singular ability to live in the present with passion.
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If you like absurdism, you might want to have a look at Cioran's "The Cult of Infinity", in case you don't know it yet. You can find it floating around the net.
IapetusOcean
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L'enfer, ce n'est qu' un chemin de fer qui mène nulle part. |
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Peter_McWeeter
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Posted January 28th, 2007 22:05 IP
^^ thanks , will do.
We're all going to die! woohoo!
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jan
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Posted January 28th, 2007 22:28 IP
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We're all going to die! woohoo! |
Hi Peter,
You seem to be well-read in existentialism. But you forget this one master between Kierkegaard and Camus. I'm talking about Heidegger. Heidegger said that it is precissely death that gives this life a meaning. If it wasn't for death, then why hurry and try the reach goals? There would be time enough to reach our goals. Death is the deathline.
We all must have felt that the end -the end of anything, life, visit, conversation- often is more intense that whatever comes before it. The deathline obliges us to make the moment meaningfull. That way death gives meaning to life.
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mystic light
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Posted January 28th, 2007 23:59 IP
Quote:
SilentPawn wrote:
Interesting. I go at it like this:
With film pictures are taken. Pictures taken aren't worth much until they are able to be seen. Until they are seen, we never know what's really on the film. If we throw away the film before we develop the pictures, how ignorrant...?
We don't know the outcome. Even in death, we don't know what will happen. Might as well stick around and help develop film instead.
(Edited by SilentPawn)
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cool...
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http://schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/ |
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mystic light
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Posted January 29th, 2007 00:13 IP
Quote:
jan wrote:
Hi Peter,
You seem to be well-read in existentialism. But you forget this one master between Kierkegaard and Camus. I'm talking about Heidegger. Heidegger said that it is precissely death that gives this life a meaning. If it wasn't for death, then why hurry and try the reach goals? There would be time enough to reach our goals. Death is the deathline.
We all must have felt that the end -the end of anything, life, visit, conversation- often is more intense that whatever comes before it. The deathline obliges us to make the moment meaningfull. That way death gives meaning to life.
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So let's assume we are worried about the death of the body, especially so when we assume that this is all there is.
How much must the desperation grow when this life doesn't give us satisfaction. We end up in a hellish realm, of opportunities irrevocably lost, persons lost forever, health lost forever, youth is gone one day.
Then what.
It was in a moment like this that I heard of reincarnation for the first time and felt instant relief from this hurry and pressure.
So I screwed up, and there is no way to make up for it in this life. And if this is true then in future lives I can. And that took the speed and desparation out of me. Only later deeper thoughts crept in, but lets not get into that right now.
Sooo, all can be fixed. There is no hurry. Eventually all will get dealt with.
Where is Heideggers deadline now?
Physically it may be there, but is that all?
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ev
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Posted January 29th, 2007 09:03 IP
"have tasted this for yourself? "
we all taste it, the place of none conception in the space between thoughts where no concepts are derived yet experience remains full.
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mystic light
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Posted January 29th, 2007 09:06 IP
Quote:
ev wrote:
"have tasted this for yourself? "
we all taste it, the place of none conception in the space between thoughts where no concepts are derived yet experience remains full.
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Who are you quoting, ev? Thanks!
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http://schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/ |
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mystic light
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Posted January 29th, 2007 09:53 IP
Quote:
In a world devoid of higher meaning or judicial afterlife, man becomes absolutely free. It is through this freedom that man can act either as a mystic (through appeal to some supernatural force) or an absurd hero (through a revolt against such hope). Henceforth, the absurd hero's refusal to hope becomes his singular ability to live in the present with passion. |
"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose. "
To enter into this discussion.... I usually fall from a chair laughing when I read philosophers musing about the purpose of life, the absurdity of life, and a few other details.
Why?
It always seems to me then that an idle mind is indeed the devil's workshop, while wife and servants are taking care of household, food and what else the gentleman needs to have taken care of while he smokes a pipe in his ivory twqoers and "thinks".
Why? Because I have come into the same train of thoughts when I had absolutely nothing to do over a lenghty period of time.
And they disappeared when there was water to carry, and wood to chop, that was when I arrived at NOW, instead of trying to explore the past and the future.
I think: what, if a philosopher was poor, a farmer who has to go into the woods to chop wood, to egg and sow to reap his harvest, to feed and milk and slaughter his goats and cows, to make butter and cheese and ham to able to sell that?
He would come up with totally different views about the purpose of life.
And a shephard, wandering over hills with his herd, and resting while watching over them will end up at another result as well. Simple people often reveal a genuine, pure, logical and simple truth.
Pure like Zen?
It is possible that the notions different people come up roots in their individual situation and is veiled with subjective, and not objective truth.
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It is through this freedom that man can act either as a mystic (through appeal to some supernatural force) or an absurd hero (through a revolt against such hope). |
The notion that only through freedom of a perceived purpose in life, and a judicial aftermatch is illogical and refuted by history.
We have many Christian, Sufi or other Mystics who were embedded in a belief of purpose and final judgement and ventured into mystical experience.
A mystic also does not "act like" a mystic, they "are" simply living out what comes natural to them, and that has even led to their executions, when it didn't fit the ruling dogma of their time, as in Al Hallaj or in Jeanne d' Arc.
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Henceforth, the absurd hero's refusal to hope becomes his singular ability to live in the present with passion. |
This conclusion is bar of logic to me, after my above elaboration.
But, to not have hope for a meaning in life and an eternal life can indeed lead to chasing one's own tail, to "get it while you can", to hedonism ending in excessive living out one's physical passions as this is "all we will ever have, so why throw it away".
But, as Lao Tze says in TTC 1 :
To focus on the momentary pleasure or pain of the myriad (passing) manifestations,
means to lose the essence ( what is the underlying invisible world.)
I can observe that all the time.
People who have no deeper connection to the invisible world suffer a lot more in this world, than those who see it detached, as a mere passing apparition, and it is through passion=> attachment.
Passione (italian) ....means to suffer , in latin,´-- Ocean, I need more info here! 
Just my two cents, friends.
(Edited by mystic light)
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IapetusOcean
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Posted January 29th, 2007 13:23 IP
It derives from the Latin passio, a suffering or enduring. The verb is patior- to experience hurt, suffering, misery or woe. As we can see, when we compare the current meaning of the English word "passion" (roughly equivalent to the Latin cupido) with its Latin roots, there is a considerable semantic drift. I wonder why that might have happened?
IapetusOcean
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L'enfer, ce n'est qu' un chemin de fer qui mène nulle part. |
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mystic light
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Posted January 29th, 2007 13:36 IP
Quote:
I wonder why that might have happened? |
You grin as if you know. Tell me more. I grin as if I know the answer.
:lol:
The considerable semantic drift seems to have happened in german as well, as here the word "Leidenschaft" contains "Leiden" =suffering= and- schaft. What that means I am not too sure but it just denotes the noun, I guess, in comparison to the verb, right?
As in english, 'Leidenschaft' means passion, as in cupido. Or Eros? Now I'm confused .
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IapetusOcean
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Posted January 29th, 2007 13:40 IP
Quote:
mystic light wrote:
The considerable semantic drift seems to have happened in german as well, as here the word "Leidenschaft" contains Leiden" =suffering= and- schaft. What that means I am not too sure but it just denotes the noun, I guess, in comparison to the verb, right?
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"Leidentum" or "Leidenheit" would also be very appropriate, I think.
IapetusOcean
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L'enfer, ce n'est qu' un chemin de fer qui mène nulle part. |
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IapetusOcean
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Posted January 29th, 2007 13:44 IP
Quote:
mystic light wrote:
You grin as if you know. Tell me more. I grin as if I know the answer.
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I don't have a clue
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L'enfer, ce n'est qu' un chemin de fer qui mène nulle part. |
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mystic light
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Posted January 29th, 2007 13:51 IP
Duplizität der Fälle. No idea what that would be in english. Master, your turn..
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http://schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/ |
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ev
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Posted January 29th, 2007 14:30 IP
Peter wrote the quote above and these
"Yeah, so why struggle to find this explaination and fill the void if it's impossible for us to comprehend?
"
indeed knowing we don't know prevents the struggle.
"You speak of some truth beyond this absurd exsietnce, but yet there can be no absolute truth, and how do you know there is truth if it's beyond our compacity to understand, unless you have tasted this for yourself? "
for we are something and do exist in experience beyond conceptual thought in the gaps between conceptions, this is not no thought more no conceptual thought where experiential thought is realised.
"True nature? That we have no true nature?
"
we are something and something isn't nothing for that is nihilistic veiw that has no understanding, what we are can only be experienced, it is nothing special, nothing super human just what human is. Unfortunately what a human is like everything else is beyond the conceptual based knowledge of the false or delusional seperation we refer to as our selfs. (we are truly not seperated from anything).
realising we can't know though can release these questions and distractions of self and other definition, and allow us to allow being without conceptual thoughts interfering, this for me is practice and gets easier every day.
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ev
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Posted January 29th, 2007 14:30 IP
Peter wrote the quote above and these
"Yeah, so why struggle to find this explaination and fill the void if it's impossible for us to comprehend?
"
indeed knowing we don't know prevents the struggle.
"You speak of some truth beyond this absurd exsietnce, but yet there can be no absolute truth, and how do you know there is truth if it's beyond our compacity to understand, unless you have tasted this for yourself? "
for we are something and do exist in experience beyond conceptual thought in the gaps between conceptions, this is not no thought more no conceptual thought where experiential thought is realised.
"True nature? That we have no true nature?
"
we are something and something isn't nothing for that is nihilistic veiw that has no understanding, what we are can only be experienced, it is nothing special, nothing super human just what human is. Unfortunately what a human is like everything else is beyond the conceptual based knowledge of the false or delusional seperation we refer to as our selfs. (we are truly not seperated from anything).
realising we can't know though can release these questions and distractions of self and other definition, and allow us to allow being without conceptual thoughts interfering, this for me is practice and gets easier every day.
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IapetusOcean
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Posted January 29th, 2007 14:41 IP
Quote:
mystic light wrote:
Duplizität der Fälle. No idea what that would be in english. Master, your turn..
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How about "duplicity of circumstances"?
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L'enfer, ce n'est qu' un chemin de fer qui mène nulle part. |
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jan
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Posted January 29th, 2007 14:45 IP
Quote:
IapetusOcean wrote:
It derives from the Latin passio, a suffering or enduring. The verb is patior- to experience hurt, suffering, misery or woe. As we can see, when we compare the current meaning of the English word "passion" (roughly equivalent to the Latin cupido) with its Latin roots, there is a considerable semantic drift. I wonder why that might have happened?
IapetusOcean
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{Etymological dictionary}
c.1175, "sufferings of Christ on the Cross," from O.Fr. passion, from L.L. passionem (nom. passio) "suffering, enduring," from stem of L. pati "to suffer, endure," from PIE base *pei- "to hurt" (cf. Skt. pijati "reviles, scorns," Gk. pema "suffering, misery, woe," O.E. feond "enemy, devil," Goth. faian "to blame"). Sense extended to sufferings of martyrs, and suffering generally, by 1225; meaning "strong emotion, desire" is attested from c.1374, from L.L. use of passio to render Gk. pathos. Replaced O.E. þolung (used in glosses to render L. passio), lit. "suffering," from þolian (v.) "to endure." Sense of "sexual love" first attested 1588; that of "strong liking, enthusiasm, predilection" is from 1638. The passion-flower so called from 1633.
The original meaning got broadened by refering to the greec pathos
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IapetusOcean
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Posted January 29th, 2007 15:54 IP
A speculation:
All suffering (passio) ultimately boils down to a feeling of dissonance and incongruity (absurditas).
IapetusOcean
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L'enfer, ce n'est qu' un chemin de fer qui mène nulle part. |
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mystic light
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Posted January 29th, 2007 15:59 IP
Quote:
IapetusOcean wrote:
A speculation:
All suffering (passio) ultimately boils down to a feeling of dissonance and incongruity (absurditas).
IapetusOcean
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Which would lead to the logical conclusion that happiness ultimately boils down to a feeling of increased harmony --> unity--> love of all and purpose in life.
Eh?
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jan
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Posted January 29th, 2007 17:10 IP
Quote:
mystic light wrote:
So let's assume we are worried about the death of the body, especially so when we assume that this is all there is.
How much must the desperation grow when this life doesn't give us satisfaction. We end up in a hellish realm, of opportunities irrevocably lost, persons lost forever, health lost forever, youth is gone one day.
Then what.
It was in a moment like this that I heard of reincarnation for the first time and felt instant relief from this hurry and pressure.
So I screwed up, and there is no way to make up for it in this life. And if this is true then in future lives I can. And that took the speed and desparation out of me. Only later deeper thoughts crept in, but lets not get into that right now.
Sooo, all can be fixed. There is no hurry. Eventually all will get dealt with.
Where is Heideggers deadline now?
Physically it may be there, but is that all? |
"Worried, desperation, opportunities irrevocably lost."
I assume you're not talking about my post. I presented a very optimist view on death. Death is not what makes this life senseless, it is death that gives meaning to life. If it wasn't for death, life would be meaningless. There would be no goals to reach, because there's always left time enough, we can do it tomorrow, or next year. Or if we don't want to do it we can pospone it for another 100 years. Perhaps by then we will want to do it. And if not, what's the problem? We'll just pospone it once more. ..... Do you feel the lethargy coming? This is the lethargy of the retired person who doesn't know what to do with his time, who has too much time.
Too much time, we all used this phrase sometimes. He doesn't know what to do, he has too much time. When there would be no death there would be endless time!
Angels have eternal lifes. What's the sense of life for an angel? Just being there? How boring.
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mystic light
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Posted January 29th, 2007 17:42 IP
Quote:
I assume you're not talking about my post. |
Of course I was replying to your post! You spoke about Heideggers notions, and I replied with a impersonal "we" (as humans)
Quote:
So let's assume we are worried about the death of the body, especially so when we assume that this is all there is.
How much must the desperation grow when this life doesn't give us satisfaction. We end up in a hellish realm, of opportunities irrevocably lost, persons lost forever, health lost forever, youth is gone one day. |
We is impersonal, general.
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I presented a very optimist view on death.. |
To me death is neither positive nor negative. It is what we do while we are alive that matters, no time how much time we assume we still have, which is a mere speculation anyways.
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Death is not what makes this life senseless, it is death that gives meaning to life. If it wasn't for death, life would be meaningless. There would be no goals to reach, because there's always left time enough, we can do it tomorrow, or next year. |
That makes no sense at all to me. I disagree with Heidegger, he doesn't impress me at all with his theory here.
Why would I have only a meaning in life through death? That is a deluded view.
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There would be no goals to reach, because there's always left time enough, we can do it tomorrow, or next year. Or if we don't want to do it we can pospone it for another 100 years. |
Since it pointless to discuss irreal things, it is just as pointless to draw conclusions from them .
If I have no limit of time, I also feel no suffering from not reaching wordly goals, nor gratification from reaching them.
Goals are therefore constructs of the mind we incarcerate ourselves in.
If we use an example this will become clearer.
If I strive for the possession of a beautiful young woman for my harem as a sheik, I am striving for something that will rot in the end.
Likewise, when I strive for a palace, I may be able to build it and decorate it with priceless marble, gold and jewels, but I can't take it with me once I go .
Therefore the goal to have a marble palace is deluded desire for a fleeting possession.
Attachment to goals on a material level serve to feed the ego, pride, vanity.
It looks a bit different when my goal is on a higher plane.
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We'll just pospone it once more. ..... Do you feel the lethargy coming? This is the lethargy of the retired person who doesn't know what to do with his time, who has too much time. |
No, not at all. Not at all. Nor do I agree with you that retired people are bored and have nothing to do.
Lots of them finally find the time to study nature, to study philosophy and finally get in touch with their true nature.
To be busy all the time with wordly issues, distractions, occupations, reminds me strongly of a hampster in his little wheel, killing time.
It reminds me of the wheel of reincarnation where people, bound to desire, greed and hate struggle like the hampster to GET somewhere, but all their efforts will end in physical destruction anyways, as always, when it comes to material existance.
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Too much time, we all used this phrase sometimes. He doesn't know what to do, he has too much time. |
Bad luck. There is lots of things to do. Actually all the time in the eternity is just enough. Once desire for more stops all stops.
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Angels have eternal lifes. What's the sense of life for an angel? Just being there? How boring. |
Why? I'd never be bored.
(Edited by mystic light)
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Peter_McWeeter
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Posted January 29th, 2007 18:42 IP
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jan wrote:
Hi Peter,
You seem to be well-read in existentialism. But you forget this one master between Kierkegaard and Camus. I'm talking about Heidegger. Heidegger said that it is precissely death that gives this life a meaning. If it wasn't for death, then why hurry and try the reach goals? There would be time enough to reach our goals. Death is the deathline.
We all must have felt that the end -the end of anything, life, visit, conversation- often is more intense that whatever comes before it. The deathline obliges us to make the moment meaningfull. That way death gives meaning to life.
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Well yeah, this is what i've been thinking about recently. A lot of existentialists (remember existentailism is a type of philosophy with many branches and a broad range of ideas, not really a philosophy in itself, big differences between Kierkegaard and Sartre, athiesm vs theism etc) say that death in itself gives life meaning. And i'm still undecided where i stand on this (like many other subjects!).
Someone bought up an interetsting topic on another internet discussion board, they threw down this scenario: That if, somehow, scientists found a way to make humans immortal and stop the aging process entirely, would this make human existence meaningless? How would it effect our values and meanings?
I used an example from Tolkeins 'middle-earth'. In that universe the elves are immortal (unless slain in battle, but they dont age). And actually Tolkein ackowledges this as more of a curse than a gift.
It's ironic, because the humans envy the elves for there immortality, but the elves envy the humans for there mortality!
If you've read the Silmarillion you'll know that the entire '2nd age' deals with this subject...The humans live on an island called Numenor whilst the elves live on a continent in the west (I forget the name) in 'immortal lands' where no one dies from old age or sickness.
But the gods of this world warn the humans never to attempt to reach the immortal lands in the west or they'll be punished...
Of course, it all becomes too tempting for the humans and eventually they get jealous of the elves and try to sail to the west...It all goes horribly wrong and the island of Numenor sinks like Atlantis, forever.
The elves think it's really stupid because the oldest of them who have lived thousands of years, there minds eventually just decay, they have too many memories, have watched all there friends and family die in wars or through accidents, and actually seek death bcause there life has become so ful of sorrow...This is why in the third age the elves begin migrating back to the west which in that time exists on a plain unaccessible by humans...
And of course it makes sense. Everything is supposed to decay and die. Struggling against that is going to cause problems. The Elves understood this!
But going back to the Albert Camus' views on death and meaning, it seems he doesn't agree with the existentialist 'norms':
In his essays Camus presented the reader with dualisms: Happiness and sadness, dark and light, life and death, etc. His aim was to emphasize the fact that happiness is fleeting and that the human condition is one of mortality. He did this not to be morbid, but to reflect a greater appreciation for life and happiness. In Le Mythe, this dualism towards became a paradox: We value our lives and existence so greatly, but at the same time we know we will eventually die, and ultimately our endeavours are meaningless. Whilst we can live with a dualism (I can accept periods of unhappiness, because I know I will also experience happiness to come), we cannot live with the paradox (I think my life is of great importance, but I also think it is meaningless).
See what I mean? I think he makes a valid point here.
It makes me wander, is it death itself that gives life meaning or the knowing death is an inevitability?
I was going to start a whole new discussion on the subject of death and how it relates to meaning, but might as well continue in this thread...
Death seems to be about the only certainty in the universe...Everything else I think is uncertain. You can jump off a 30-storey building and we'd all probably agree that you'd die. It's extremely likely, i'd probably put money on it if i was a gambling man (well i probably wouldn't bet over something as crude but work with me here lol), but there's always a chance (however small) that the person would survive the fall due to any number of circumstances (each decision I think creates an infinite number of other possible outcomes)...I think the concept works for everything, except death, which indicates that there is something special about it...
Or is there? Since everything is subject to decay and impermanence, why is it special? Is it just because most of us probably can't comprehend our mortality or simply refuse to accept it? So we attach special meanings to death, like lavish ideas of eternal happiness, heaven, (though this poses the question where is the meaning in being 'happy' forever in a utopian paradise, every gets bored of paradise eventually!) etc, when maybe there isn't really anything special at all about it. It's as normal as breathing.
So, maybe death obliges us to make the moment meaningful, carpe diem, but is that because of the fact we die or because of the perception of death as being something 'special' or even 'unique'? I don't know.
We get to the end of something (a journey, a goal) and we look back and we reflect. Did it meet our expectations? Probably not. Are we satsified? Maybe, maybe not, but there is always room for improvement in our mind (which in itself leads to disatisfaction), things are never quite 'right', so we are never quite satisfied enough. Getting to end it may seem wonderful at first, but these feelings are always fleeting, in the end we become disatisfied again...So maybe it's the same with death? We lie dying on our deathbeds, close to death, reflecting, but having regrets no matter how hard we tried to live with meaning and purpose, we are never totally satisfied, and everything we strived for, all those memories, all those values, what do they mean now that we are close to death? It seems, in life death gave us a temporary purpose, but when death actually happens it destroys all of that because it's all ended, finished. What are we left with? Nothing? What was the meaning in our menaings?
The paradox of death; It gives us purpose in life, but then just as easily take it takes it all away when it finally comes. Everything ends.
Absurd? Well yeah.
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mystic light
Administrator
Posts: 6815
Registered: May 2006 |
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Posted January 29th, 2007 19:41 IP
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Peter_McWeeter wrote:
The paradox of death; It gives us purpose in life, but then just as easily take it takes it all away when it finally comes. Everything ends.
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Hi, Pete...
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Death seems to be about the only certainty in the universe... |
Change is an even more allencompassing principle, as it includes the circumstances before death as well.
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In that universe the elves are immortal (unless slain in battle, but they dont age). |
To me that seems as a logical fallacy. You're either mortal or you're immortal, but not both.
If you die under certain circumstances, you are not immortal, you are mortal.
But it's excusable, as it is fantasy, meant to entertain.
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But the gods of this world warn the humans never to attempt to reach the immortal lands in the west or they'll be punished...Of course, it all becomes too tempting for the humans and eventually they get jealous of the elves and try to sail to the west...It all goes horribly wrong and the island of Numenor sinks like Atlantis, forever. |
Sort of like the forbidden apple....Paradise lost, forever...
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So maybe it's the same with death? We lie dying on our deathbeds, close to death, reflecting, but having regrets no matter how hard we tried to live with meaning and purpose, we are never totally satisfied, and everything we strived for, all those memories, all those values, what do they mean now that we are close to death? It seems, in life death gave us a temporary purpose, but when death actually happens it destroys all of that because it's all ended, finished. What are we left with? Nothing? What was the meaning in our menaings? |
I really have heard of other deaths as well. There must not be this notion that one is desparate or discontent over it.
Some die, very much reconciled with life.
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Are we satsified? Maybe, maybe not, but there is always room for improvement in our mind (which in itself leads to disatisfaction), things are never quite 'right', so we are never quite satisfied enough. Getting to end it may seem wonderful at first, but these feelings are always fleeting, in the end we become disatisfied again... |
Compare:
In Buddhism, a buddha is any being who has become fully awakened (enlightened), has permanently overcome desire or craving , aversion , and delusion , or ignorance, and has achieved complete liberation from suffering. However, such a negative definition should be augmented with its positive aspect, for a Buddha is also "one who has achieved a state of perfect enlightenment,"[1] which is a state of perfect mental tranquillity and non-fading bliss: "is the highest bliss" and "the bliss of peace, the bliss of enlightenment."
~
A deluded mind is hell.
Without delusions.
the mind is the country of the Buddhas.
When the mind creates the idea of the mind.
people are deluded and in hell.
Those established on the path to Buddhahood
don’t use the mind to create the idea
of the mind and so are always
in the country of the Buddhas.
- Bodhidharma
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Peter_McWeeter
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Posted January 29th, 2007 20:25 IP
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Sort of like the forbidden apple....Paradise lost, forever... |
Yeah totally Tolkein was a christian.
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To me that seems as a logical fallacy. You're either mortal or you're immortal, but not both.
If you die under certain circumstances, you are not immortal, you are mortal.
But it's excusable, as it is fantasy, meant to entertain.
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Well okay, whatever your definition. They don't die of old age though...and yah, Silmarillion is an amazing glimpse of a mind-blowing and wild imaginaton despite the heavy christian undertones!
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I really have heard of other deaths as well. There must not be this notion that one is desparate or discontent over it.
Some die, very much reconciled with life. |
Of course, this was just an example, but I dont think anyone has died with absolutely no regrets whatsoever. There will always be "Could've done that differently, should've done that differently...", that niggling disatisfaction. One may die reconciled, without fear, but I don't think without any disatisfaction at all.
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Compare:
In Buddhism, a buddha is any being who has become fully awakened (enlightened), has permanently overcome desire or craving , aversion , and delusion , or ignorance, and has achieved complete liberation from suffering. However, such a negative definition should be augmented with its positive aspect, for a Buddha is also "one who has achieved a state of perfect enlightenment,"[1] which is a state of perfect mental tranquillity and non-fading bliss: "is the highest bliss" and "the bliss of peace, the bliss of enlightenment." |
Yeah I can see the similarities, except I don't accept the notion of nirvana. Permanently overcoming desire? I dont feel that fits into the teaching that everything is impermanent (and as i've argued elsewhere I don't feel it's viable to 'overcome' desire as this'll just lead to more desire)...Isn't this just the same as a christian heaven or muslim paradise? And if nirvana is impossible to explain or conceptualise then why bother speaking of it at all, isn't it counter-productive (and futile) to do this? I'm not going to continue with my doubts about certain elements within buddhism, it's too off-topic...Not the right place for it.
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Lotus Buddhism Forum :: :: Spirituality & Religion. :: Absurdism...
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