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Bobby
Power Poster
Posts: 143
Registered: Aug 2005 |
 Posted October 19th, 2005 09:05 PM IP   
Michel Negroponte---
BEFORE you leave, I just wanted to let you know that I have currently set up a viewing of your film "Methadonia" at our local high school. The principal AND the school board are highly enthusiastic about this endeavor.
We are currently scheduling the event for Friday, November 4th, 2205. We did move it back a few weeks so that it could involve some "dignataries", speicifially and possibly the Governor of the State of Alaska, and the Commisioner of Health and Social Services, along with other lawmakers. Our current population watching this film should be over 800 people.
Now---I have to set up some pre film questionaires, and some post film questionaires. By all means I would send you the results of both!
You stated that you would like to be involved with the questions, as the way you state them can sometimes elicit an incorrect response to what you actually want to "get" from the question itself.
Would you want to participate in the question set up? If so, maybe you could e-mail Carol some "pe film" and some "post film" questions. She could then relay them to me, via e-mail?
I thank you for visiting our forum here, knowing that you would be mobbed by angry members, like I have said before, shows what kind of man you are,
To all others---discussion of methadone advocacy starts with DISCUSSION! Not belittling, bashing, condescending, personal attacks, aloofness, etc. The discussion itself, is progress, as long as it does not make us look like idiots that cannot understand and awknoledge other's views, but instead just advocate OUR views, without insulting others!
Michel---as you know, I for one liked your film, but not it's content. I DO feel like it did harm to MMT patients as a whole. BUT, as the man you are, you came here to learn more about what you made your film about, and that shows integrity.
Now, final point. I would very much appreciate if you could send Carol some questions that you might want to pose to nearly 700 + 12th grade students, along with 20 or so lawmakers, possibly some doctors, pyschologists, addiction treatment counselors, anywhere between 40 to 100 MMT patients, and I have personally called up all four television news stations! It seems like it is growing leaps and bounds!
I would also like to ask any of you on this forum what questions you would like to ask also of this group of people (12th graders--16, 17 year olds), about drug use/abuse. One set they will fill out PRIOR the the viewing of "Methadonia", the second set immediatley follwing the viewing.
Any and all help will be appreciated!
And, of course, Michel, I will send you the results back as soon as they are tabulated, and also to this forum. I think it would be a good analysis of what the general public REALLY thought how this film protrayed methadone, instead of what we "fear" it might have.
Fair enough?
God Speed~~
Bobby
i Bobby
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ljs911
Member
Posts: 30
Registered: Jun 2005 |
Posted October 19th, 2005 10:17 PM IP
I have not as of yet seen the documentary, but I get the feeling by all the comments that our members, the people who live what you put on film, are on the money. Our biggest enemy is shame. There is a sad lack of knowledge out there about methadone, and there is a disportionate amount of information showing it failures and highlight the patients that don't get the proper treatment, and as a result misuse this treatment modality. It is up to us to expose this type of hype about the "dangers of methadone". We need someone to illustrate all the positive use's of methadone. And how much it hurts one, if not the most, effective treatment, for opiate addiction.
Also how many people don't have to suffer and can live productive lives as a result of treatment with methadone for pain. Not to mention the thousands of lives MMTP have saved. This is in addition to keep those it keeps from a life of crime which would lead to jail or death.
I thank God for methadone, first it help me deal with the results of medical malpratice which left me with both physical and emotional pain which lead me to self medicate with very dangerous narcotics, which were unregulated and I never knew what or how much I was getting. Then I sort treatment for my addiction and methadone was the only effective modality which allowed me to stop useing street drugs. Now finally after many years of being clean of any illegal drugs I am now getting treatment for my pain which resulted from malpractice with methadone, allowing me to lead a productive life serving society through my occupation.
Mr. Negroponte with your talent and access to the industry please use some of it to expose the hipocracy that exists in society today. More and more people of notoriaty have been admitting to addiction to opiates. Also there are and many that are currently being treated, or were treated with methadone, both for addiction and pain management. And there are thousands of patients which have found dignity and freedom with the help of Methadone. Yet most people think of methadone treatment is what I fear you portrayed. Please give us an even break by taking a chance and telling the complete story.
In this day and at this time people need to be given hope and there is nothing more effective then hope by example.
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chase
Member
Posts: 52
Registered: Aug 2005 |
Posted October 19th, 2005 10:24 PM IP
you go Bobby,
i think i will move to alaska. Can you get 30 day take outs. What i great acomplishment. Maybe Michel can get HBO to send a camera crew and we can get this filmed and use this as a tool to use to futher educational series, With you adding the people who are doing well on your panel of people to answer the questions the kids can see that we can function and do not all nodd off. And the kids can see even a good drug can be not good if people abuse benzos with it. But tell them that proper use of benzos too can be effective in methadone treatment. NO MORE COOKIE CUTTER APPROACHES TO METHADONE TREATMENT,
Bobby i am so happy that u are doing this. do not forget to get permission to show the movie or that HBO might sue u. Maybe MIchel can give you special permission.
paul Chase B,
Paul. Bowman CMA and a nice guy.
Together We Will change this World
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michelneg
Member
Posts: 82
Registered: Oct 2005 |
Posted October 19th, 2005 11:02 PM IP
Dear Bobby,
It sounds like you've put together quite a screening. Congrats. Please send your email to Carol and she can forward it to me, or Carol can give you mine - either way. But what's most important is that you've used your passion and energy to put together a massive screening. I hope it's a great opportunity to talk about addiction and recovery with teenagers. And by all means share with the audience your concerns about how methadone treatment is portrayed in the film. Believe me, I'm honored the film is being put to such good use.
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arlenewla
Member
Posts: 17
Registered: Oct 2005 |
Posted October 19th, 2005 11:03 PM IP
Hi Bobby,
Think it's fantastic that you're doing a screening of Methadonia for local high school students. Great prevention tool!
I noted that you've not only invited the students, but lawmakers, psychologists, physicians, MM treatment providers as well as MM patients who are, I assume doing well. At the risk of bringing some heat, how about inviting some ex-Methadonians now in 12 Step (abstinent) Program recovery? 'Cause if the use of Methadone is supposed to be about the possibility of bridging from active addiction to recovery, then I would think that showing the continuing transistion to drug-free recovery might be a positive segue. Best, Arlene Ford
Quote:
Bobby wrote:
Michel Negroponte---
BEFORE you leave, I just wanted to let you know that I have currently set up a viewing of your film "Methadonia" at our local high school. The principal AND the school board are highly enthusiastic about this endeavor.
We are currently scheduling the event for Friday, November 4th, 2205. We did move it back a few weeks so that it could involve some "dignataries", speicifially and possibly the Governor of the State of Alaska, and the Commisioner of Health and Social Services, along with other lawmakers. Our current population watching this film should be over 800 people.
Now---I have to set up some pre film questionaires, and some post film questionaires. By all means I would send you the results of both!
You stated that you would like to be involved with the questions, as the way you state them can sometimes elicit an incorrect response to what you actually want to "get" from the question itself.
Would you want to participate in the question set up? If so, maybe you could e-mail Carol some "pe film" and some "post film" questions. She could then relay them to me, via e-mail?
I thank you for visiting our forum here, knowing that you would be mobbed by angry members, like I have said before, shows what kind of man you are,
To all others---discussion of methadone advocacy starts with DISCUSSION! Not belittling, bashing, condescending, personal attacks, aloofness, etc. The discussion itself, is progress, as long as it does not make us look like idiots that cannot understand and awknoledge other's views, but instead just advocate OUR views, without insulting others!
Michel---as you know, I for one liked your film, but not it's content. I DO feel like it did harm to MMT patients as a whole. BUT, as the man you are, you came here to learn more about what you made your film about, and that shows integrity.
Now, final point. I would very much appreciate if you could send Carol some questions that you might want to pose to nearly 700 + 12th grade students, along with 20 or so lawmakers, possibly some doctors, pyschologists, addiction treatment counselors, anywhere between 40 to 100 MMT patients, and I have personally called up all four television news stations! It seems like it is growing leaps and bounds!
I would also like to ask any of you on this forum what questions you would like to ask also of this group of people (12th graders--16, 17 year olds), about drug use/abuse. One set they will fill out PRIOR the the viewing of "Methadonia", the second set immediatley follwing the viewing.
Any and all help will be appreciated!
And, of course, Michel, I will send you the results back as soon as they are tabulated, and also to this forum. I think it would be a good analysis of what the general public REALLY thought how this film protrayed methadone, instead of what we "fear" it might have.
Fair enough?
God Speed~~
Bobby
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C.Hilger
Member
Posts: 5
Registered: Oct 2005 |
Posted October 19th, 2005 11:13 PM IP
Bobby Wrote:
"I think it would be a good analysis of what the general public REALLY thought how this film portrayed methadone, instead of what we "fear" it might have."
Fair enough?
Bobby,
I'm thinking that you will not have a representative sample of the "general public".
What you will have is the opinion/reaction of a quasi-captive, semi-interested group of adolescents that didn’t have to go to class, and some self-selecting "dignitaries." I believe that the research is worth while but I do not believe its representative of the “Joe average” we have been discussing.
The instrument you develop will need to be very specialized because of the challenges inherent to this project. My guess is that you will actually only be able to capture one or two specific pieces of useable data so keep your research goal very narrow. You also have a very specific target population, some significant questionnaire administration challenges, and time constraints. You could easily receive 400 responses that are invalid and incomplete if this is not done properly.
If you have not done this type of thing before I suggest you consult someone from a local University or research firm, I bet Michel can help with that. I would also recommend having an impartial party collate and analyze the data. I have been through this process and can not begin to tell you how challenging it is to do well.
If you want to have some fun – film the group as they watch the film and send it to Michel for analysis.
The good news is that you have 200 years and two weeks to prepare…sorry I couldn’t resist. LOL
“We are currently scheduling the event for Friday, November 4th, 2205”
Please include me when you distribute the data I think the results will very interesting.
Good Luck
Chuck
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arlenewla
Member
Posts: 17
Registered: Oct 2005 |
Posted October 19th, 2005 11:15 PM IP
I'm just re-reading a lot of the posts, and the words that keeps popping up are "shame" and "stigma." So I wonder about this. And what I wonder is WHY? IF the premise is that Methadone Maintenance, used properly and legitimately, is so very efficacious to an addict's recovery, WHY feel shamed? IF this opiate allows so many to re-enter society and productive human beings, WHY feel stigmatized?
I also wonder WHY, each time I bring up the issue of 12 Step (abstinent) recovery...which I have both on the HBO Methadonia Forum as well as on this forum...I somehow end up on the defensive? It's rather odd. Is someone in abstinent recovery...recovery from Methadone addiction...now considered "less than?" Do I somehow end up the enemy for posing the possibility that there IS another way to recovery?
Shame and stigma are self-imposed themes. I believe, for me, that no one can foist these feelings on me...only I can do that. So, IF one truly believes that Methadone is the right path to recovery for them, rid yourself of the shame and stigma...move on. Best regards, Arlene Ford
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bodubya
*MODERATOR*
Posts: 95
Registered: Mar 2005 |
Posted October 19th, 2005 11:31 PM IP
Michel,
One two part question please and I hope you did not already cover this but:
Why did you choose opiate/methadone recovery and not alcohol or cocaine addiction and the trouble associated with those or other types of addicts?
And:
During the filming did you ever at any point consider working in the field of addiction recovery or at least wonder about the satisfaction that the people who do work as counselors, doctors or phsychiatrists get from helping others.
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Bobby
Power Poster
Posts: 143
Registered: Aug 2005 |
Posted October 20th, 2005 12:58 AM IP
Michel---
Carol already has my e-mail. I know that she is very busy now and I certainly do not want to overwhelm her, although I think she would be accomoadating! Yeah, Okay, Nov. 4th, 2005---okay? LOL
We are getting some very good MMT patients, and also some that have used and are in the different abstinance programs. I also received notice that both NBC and CBS that will have film crews present-haven't heard on the others.
I FINALLY brought on an EVENTS co-oridinator on board (an old girlfriend), she is very good at what she does, and owns on of the largest in Alaska..so yeah!! this will litterally make it grow by leaps and bounds, and even a different venue is being thought of-same audience, but larger venue.
So, Michel---and everybody else, please send your questions to Carol via e-mail, I could them hand then over to Candy ( my events co-ordinator) and to Michel, and see what they come up with. Although I realize that this is not really a whole representative of the whole public forum, the students will be watching this OFF school hours, so it is not like they get free class time, other school students are being invited, thier frineds, parents, faith based charitable orginizations.
Now, if I could only get Michel up here........HAHAHA
Serioulsy folks, I need questions---rememeber some background info on each subject on thier beliefs, feelings, use of drugs, etc., etc..
And afterwords, what we want to focus on is what the film showed them, what did they get out of it? did it change thier minds on how bad drugs could be? Did it make methadone a "good drug" for opiod dependant/addicted people? What, if anything else could be done?
These are just examples, like I say, I am NOT a question person--at all (as noticed above). We need to get these questions in no later than October 26th, 2005.
To everybody---thankyou!!
God Speed~~
Bobby
i Bobby
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chase
Member
Posts: 52
Registered: Aug 2005 |
Posted October 20th, 2005 01:47 AM IP
Arlenawia-
i think that if you are off methadone and you are into 12 step programs thats great why feel defensive. But their was a time the methadone was time limited and people were forced to detox and told go to NA. That did not work for many people and that is why people are afraid this will happened again. i think now with MA we can use the 12 step program to do great work on our selves and not feel ashamed to still use methadone and if and when people decide to stop using methadone is their decsion. Many people decide this every day and i think good for them and i feel that i will do this to sometime in the near future and many of my advocate friends at NAMA have done this already its just lets let the patient decide without any pressure from anyone. Also you may not know that many people who are not any longer on methadone are some of the best advocates for methadone treatment. NO reason to be negative for stopping methadone and no reason to be negative to take it for your lifetime if that is what works for you.
together we can make a difference.
Paul
Paul. Bowman CMA and a nice guy.
Together We Will change this World
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zenith
*MODERATOR*
Posts: 1228
Registered: Apr 2005 |
Posted October 20th, 2005 08:42 AM IP
Arlene
I can't help but feel on the defensive when you post about the superiority of 12 step recovery, myself. There are many that this does not work for, and I am sure that you are probably of the opinion that those people simply did not work the steps hard enough, or have a good sponsor, or whatever, but I am here to respectfully tell you that I have been to well over a thousand 12 step meetings and done everything within my power to do what was asked of me, had a wonderful sponsor, worked the steps, all of them, read all the literature and then some, and still kept relapsing. I was so hurt and confused. I just couldn't seem to "get it". I now understand why. I am happy and highly functional on MMT, i still attend AA as well as MA, and I have no desire to persue "abstinent recovery". Yet, when I read your posts, it seems that you are insinuating that this is not really good enough. So, just like you, I feel "put on the defensive".
Respectfully,
Zenith
Zenith
C.M.A. (certified methadone advocate)
ARM-Texas
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Huis
Member
Posts: 73
Registered: Oct 2005 |
Posted October 20th, 2005 10:37 AM IP
Two items, 12 step programs and Scared Straight.
First, I would say that 12 step as originally conceived, just as Christianity as taught by Jesus' example is not what takes place, most of time, in the real world,
with followers of either of them. Dr Bill and Jesushad teachings of kindness, tolerance and inclusivenss and love. Any methadone patient going to an AA meeting, and disclosing his treatment status will tell you that most, not all......, folks are really nasty to them on that account and don't let them speak in meetings. What kind of a message is that?
12 step programs just like methadone clinics and addicts are neither uniformly evil or good things . IN GENERAL, 12 step and abstinence based programs and addicts, in between relapses, bash methadone and methadone patients., AA used to bash, like Scientologists, psychiatric medications as well. The 12 step groups shamed MMT pateints terribly and, according to some, made them so upset that they slipped or relapsed. Furthermore, the inpatient programs, which are costly and, unfortunately, have horrible long term success records with opioid dependent patients, (unless they get them after MMT has kept them alive for 15 years and allowed them to live and mature and lose some of their demons..over time) also bash methadone while they charge HUGE $ for 12 step based care, which out to be free. This attitude is changing, but the great majority (NOT ALL!) of opioid dependent patients don't find 12 step helpful and feel, after attending, that 12 step hates them. The attitudes of completely or temporarily abstinent 12 steppers, to many of them, is condesceding, Moonie-cult like, mindless, and venomous toward them. Still the MMT patients are pleased for those who need and benefit from this kind of fellowship, without making any judgments about how lame it is to need that kind of mind control, blathering and comradery with other arguably sick people, No comments about "Meeting handcuffs" or "these people have no real emotion, they are just full of simplistic slogans...what jerks." I mean it when I say THEY DON"T SAY THOSE NASTY THINGS, and neither do I. Really. .Seeing that some may benefit, we are charitable and compassionate, in spite of hurt when rejected. At least that is my personal experience, which may not have any meaning to the rest of you.
People walk away from dependence every day, in every part of the world, for reasons we cannot explain. 12 step plays no role and neither does methadone. If you live long enough, it just goes away for the great majority of addicts. Treatment works, but so does time, in my opinion. Sometimes it is religion and sometimes not. Sometimes it is ibogaine. Sometimes it is jail. Mostly, they just get over it. The lucky ones.
Anyway, what would be nice is if 12 steppers found it in their hearts to not judge people who choose to remain on methadone and feel superior and make them second class citizens in their meetings. What works for one person is not the answer for all.
I hope this helps you understand why your comments here and every other forum where you parade your personal experiences and say fairly ignorant things about methadone treatment, (eg. "I do approve of short term treatment, but..) are not seen as helpful to folks whose recovery is as complete as they want and as it needs to be, while taking methadone. They feel awful with out it, not better. There lives are full and they are productive members of the society, or as productive as they might ever be....
12 step has the best and worst of religion, depending on how people take it. I never hear methadone patient ragging about how awful it is to be abstinent and dependent on 12 step groups. They are simply happy for anyone who has dealt with their addiction in a way which they think is helpful. Why is it so rare to hear a 12 stepper with the same tolerance and understanding toward MMT? Is it so threateing that there may be ANOTHER way? Methadone programs get a lot of AA causualties and hear about a lot of AA abstinent patients who relapse and die. No one takes pleasure in that. No one feels superior about the failure. These are chronic, relapsing disorders. MMT folks would like some respect from steppers, and seldom find it, is what I think is the problem.
Next. I REPEAT...SCARED STRAIGHT does not work. Almost no methadone patients who posted and none that I know can relate to this very ill and disturbed people in this piece. If scared straignt worked, there would be no crime, no smoking, no unprotected sex, no drug abuse...Really. Who among you was scared straight? Who did not know that addiction had an ugly downside. No one will see these people and think that it could happen to them.. And, 99 percent of them would be correct. Poverty, genetics, mental illness.. inadequate medical and psychiatric care, ....these folks had it all. So...while there may be value in this film it will not be the scared straight dimension. There may be plenty of things to talk about, such as the consequences of becoming unemployable and the stigma against methadone which results in destructive myths and inadequate funding, of both MMT treatment and mental health to make it difficult from them to get coordinated care for their multiple problems.. but Scared Straight? Not a chance.
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kid
Member
Posts: 32
Registered: Oct 2005 |
Posted October 20th, 2005 01:22 PM IP
I think it's a good idea, combining medical recovery & the 12 steps. Some people benefit from the structure of it all. Also Recovery don't necessarily mean total abstinance. IMHP it means bounceing back, dropping that ball-n-chain, and carring on with my life. I spun my wheels 24yrs, from age 14 in 69' to 93' when I decided I must have done serious chemical damage. 12- 7day detox with 30 day rehabs, and one of those was an intense 9 to 18 month programs, a theraputic community for people with felonies. I stayed 9 months cause I had 3 flat hanging over my head for a drug store burg. I had 5 yrs probation, and I'd get violated for DUI or Paraphanalia. It was either be in treatment or be sent to prison. After 4 yrs, (74' to 78') I was let of probation. What I'm trying to say is the only time I could stay clean & sober was when I was locked up in jail, or in a locked-ward treatment center. I was brain washed that I was morally weak by the NA/AA folks.
Most of the time I voluntarily checked in, the rest of the time I had court pressure. It didn't work reguardless. in 75' while on probation I secretly got on MMT. I did great at both places. The first, I walked off on 40mg the 2nd day of a "10-day diciplinary detox" they called it. I had signed a contract with my counselor, 3 pos u/a's or miss 3 groups in a 30 day period, resulted in the 10-day taper. That's as bad as Feetoxing! Anyway that 2nd day I was 30 sec late to dosing window. I stormed out and didn't go back. I'll never forget it! After 30 days, I got on at different place, where I kicked 75mgs in jail, going in to do 30 days for DUI. That's when I violated probation.
Those of you that think MM Centers are screwed up now. You don't know nothing. Out of all the recovery programs I've been in the methadone maintenance was the only ones that worked. I was able to function while on it.
After the 2 bad experiences withdrawing like I did, made me sware I'd never get back on MMT.
That was a long time ago in 75'
When I got on MMT in 93' I perty much said this is it! for the rest of my life. Being a 50 year old loner/sub-contractor, I'm lucky no children were racked over the coals with me. Someday, if, or when I'm ready, I might challenge the methadone. The way I look at it, why spin my wheels and waste my time like I did for so many years. I don't want to jepardize all I've accomplished.
Well back to the film & MA. I have to respect what Carol has done here. That is, merging the 2 concepts together. It's kind of confusing since most n/a a/a people (12 step workers) are so set on total abstinence.
Michel & Carol,
If you'd give me some feedback i'd lov it!
Sorry bout the self history trip, I have to remind myself where I
been.
Sincerly,
kidcur
kidcur
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kid
Member
Posts: 32
Registered: Oct 2005 |
Posted October 20th, 2005 01:55 PM IP
Quote:
Huis wrote:
Next. I REPEAT...SCARED STRAIGHT does not work. Almost no methadone patients who posted and none that I know can relate to this very ill and disturbed people in this piece. If scared straignt worked, there would be no crime, no smoking, no unprotected sex, no drug abuse...Really. Who among you was scared straight? Who did not know that addiction had an ugly downside. No one will see these people and think that it could happen to them.. And, 99 percent of them would be correct. Poverty, genetics, mental illness.. inadequate medical and psychiatric care, ....these folks had it all. So...while there may be value in this film it will not be the scared straight dimension. There may be plenty of things to talk about, such as the consequences of becoming unemployable and the stigma against methadone which results in destructive myths and inadequate funding, of both MMT treatment and mental health to make it difficult from them to get coordinated care for their multiple problems.. but Scared Straight? Not a chance.
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Huis,
The scared straight theory is intended for young nieve, children. Not people of your caliber.
I'll say again - If it saves one childs life it will be worth it. You have a lot of smarts. It's a shame you are so bitter. I don't see what you believe your accomplishing by attacking Michels film, and saying the same negative bull over & over. If you channeled all that negativity constructively, why you could probably do something to help the stigma.
kidcur
kidcur
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Carol
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*ADMINISTRATOR*
Forum Queen
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Posts: 3238
Registered: Jan 2005 |
Posted October 20th, 2005 04:18 PM IP
Hi, Kid! I also turned 50 this year......fun, eh? I'll add on my new 50's "look" at the end of this post......gotta keep your sense of humor, eh?
Well, Kid.....your post is going to open a whole can or worms, lol.......however, I've never been very shy. MA is a WONDERFUL thing......and one of the main reasons that it is around is because of the stance that AA/NA and the like take with people on medically assisted treatment. So that being said.....we want to REALLY make certain that we don't end up with the same damned attitudes! The strictness.....uniform meetings.....AA on methadone, lol! And PLEASE do not get me wrong......I am NOT NOT NOT putting down AA or NA.....they save LOTS of lives. It's just that MA......as are opiate addicts....is different...or it's supposed to be. That is just one of the reasons that I "work" on my own now. First of all.....I think the name is confusing as hell.....and doesn't seem to include all of the people that want to fit under it's "umbrella" now. We are seeing more and more patients taking Buprenorphine (Suboxone/Subutex).....and we are really seeing a huge trend of folks taking methadone for chonic pain...and are not addicts. Some people are having issues with having an intergroup telling them they are not allowed to use the MA logo.....or much else having to do with MA. I have had a VERY hard time of even mentioning "MA"....even tho the American Self Help Clearinghouse (the place that gives all the big organizations the list of 12 step groups....from AA to OverEaters) has this website as their resource for MA!! I've been told to "cease and desist"....more than a few times. Hell.....I only WISH there were 100's more support websites and organizations!! This is not a contest on who's bigger and badder. I worked my little ass off and have brought more recognition to MA in a short time than "officials" have in years. Do you know that when I try to access the "offical" page for Methadone Anonymous.....this is what I see....
FORBIDDEN
You don't have permission to access / on this server.
Is that not unbelieveable??? We have close to 300 members here and MOST of them are active in MA. they come here for support....with questions, etc. But I am "forbidden" from even entering the "official" MA website.
Ok.....all this being said (FINALLY)....this has gone on for way too long and I have had so many people come to me in anger and frustration. By popular demand.......IN ADDITION to "MA" (official or not, lol).....we here and MANY clinics that have contacted me will now be having MARS meetings.....
Medicine Assisted Recovery & Support
MARS covers EVERYBODY.....from people on methadone......to Buprenorphine....to those that have chronic pain and are taking opiates for that. Since it is a DIFFERENT name......we no longer need an "official" ANYTHING. We are mature (most of us, lol) ADULTS and we do not need to be told how or where or what to do with our meetings. This is juuuuuust a beginning and ANYBODY that would like to help......we'd love to hear from you!
Sorry to intrude into this thread.....but it's ONE way to reach alot of folks in one fell swoooooop. Kid.....your questions gave me the perfect opportunity to stop procrastinating. LOTS more later! smoooooooch.........Carol (just think of the cool logos one could use for "MARS", lol......can't wait!)
My new look.....as promised, lol.....
CAROL SHOLITON
- President/CEO
- METHADONE SUPPORT ORG.
- http://www.MethadoneSupport.org
- Carol@MethadoneSupport.org
COME CHECK OUT OUR MAIN WEBSITE!!!!
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Huis
Member
Posts: 73
Registered: Oct 2005 |
Posted October 20th, 2005 04:54 PM IP
Quote:
kid wrote:
Huis,
The scared straight theory is intended for young nieve, children. Not people of your caliber.
I'll say again - If it saves one childs life it will be worth it. You have a lot of smarts. It's a shame you are so bitter. I don't see what you believe your accomplishing by attacking Michels film, and saying the same negative bull over & over. If you channeled all that negativity constructively, why you could probably do something to help the stigma.
kidcur
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Sorry if you misunderstood. I am not attacking the film. Simply, I am saying that I have never seen any research that suggests that "Scared Straight? tactics work. That is all. I said that the film might be a good thing to stimulate all kinds of discussion, but that it is not likely to scare kids, straight, That is not a criticism of the film. I am not bitter about this process, whatsoever. Please feel free to show us some legitimathe research that Scared Straight, works, and i will be happy to learn something new.
The only person that I do know who was scared by this so far, was a medical professional who is resignin g from a clinic whiere she has been working, for years, enthusiastcally, on account of the way she felt she would be regarded by people who saw the film.
That is ust one person, of course.
I hope that you will follow up on this and let us know about the success of scare tactiics on kids who are acturaly at risk.
Not bitter, just sharing what I believe to be the truth about the oiutcome of such interventions.
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zenith
*MODERATOR*
Posts: 1228
Registered: Apr 2005 |
Posted October 20th, 2005 05:03 PM IP
ummmmmm.......I actually kinda like that coat.
What does that make me?
do i want to know?
Zenith
Zenith
C.M.A. (certified methadone advocate)
ARM-Texas
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bodubya
*MODERATOR*
Posts: 95
Registered: Mar 2005 |
Posted October 20th, 2005 05:56 PM IP
Better hurry up and change the name of this forum. LOL
Bo
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bodubya
*MODERATOR*
Posts: 95
Registered: Mar 2005 |
Posted October 20th, 2005 05:58 PM IP
I think we just started our own documentary. Get the camera's rollin'
Bo
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Huis
Member
Posts: 73
Registered: Oct 2005 |
Posted October 20th, 2005 06:02 PM IP
[quote]Carol wrote:
. MA is a WONDERFUL thing......and one of the main reasons that it is around is because of the stance that AA/NA and the like take with people on medically assisted treatment. So that being said.....we want to REALLY make certain that we don't end up with the same damned attitudes! The strictness.....uniform meetings.....AA on methadone, lol! And PLEASE do not get me wrong......I am NOT NOT NOT putting down AA or NA.....they save LOTS of lives. It's just that MA......as are opiate addicts....is different...or it's supposed to be. That is just one of the reasons that I "work" on my own now. First of all.....I think the name is confusing as hell.....and doesn't seem to include all of the people that want to fit under it's "umbrella" now. We are seeing more and more patients taking Buprenorphine (Suboxone/Subutex).....and we are really seeing a huge trend of folks taking methadone for chonic pain...and are not addicts. Some people are having issues with having an intergroup telling them they are not allowed to use the MA logo.....or much else having to do with MA. I have had a VERY hard time of even mentioning "MA"....even tho the American Self Help Clearinghouse (the place that gives all the big organizations the list of 12 step groups....from AA to OverEaters) has this website as their resource for MA!! I've been told to "cease and desist"....more than a few times. Hell.....I only WISH there were 100's more support websites and organizations!! This is not a contest on who's bigger and badder. I worked my little ass off and have brought more recognition to MA in a short time than "officials" have in years. Do you know that when I try to access the "offical" page for Methadone Anonymous.....this is what I see....
[QUOTE)
Carol,
I can't seem to get it across that I am really very supportive of anything, that works for addiction. When I mentioned certain things about 12 step programs that were not terrific for medication assisted treatment patients, I was not including MA, and the point was not to slam AA and NA, undeservedly.
Some people need 12 step and enjoy it and I certainly support and recommend it.. for methaodone patients to try. Even NA or AA. The point is, I don't know how many 12 step programs recommend methadone maintenance to their crowd. I am guessing, ZERO! Please let me know if I am wrong. I don't go to these meetings...I just hear about them.
Patients say that they have to lie about their being on other medication, if it is not an MA group, to get anything out of it...at least those are the complaints. One guy I knew, who was an NA group leader, passed out at meeting due to a mild stroke,but because the group members found some prescription medication , in his pocket, he says, they just left him on the floor. A Hazelden meeting, I think. After he came to, he went on to require a lot of medical care unrelated to substance abuse.
. Maybe we never hear about the more tolerant meetings, because there is nothing to complain about. Like...no one hears about good methadone clinics because there is not much to talk about.
I just want to say that I am not bitter about 12 step, apart from what Carol says and what other patients say, and I know that it has been helpful to many. It is not helpful to everyone and is not better than any other thing,that improves health and quality of life. I feel like Rodney King, "Why can't we just all get along? " I can't remember if that was during one of his Angel Dust runs, or not, but it is still a good question.
Taking moral judgment out of the treatment of disease seems to be a good place to start and realizing that indeed,
"different strokes for different folks" should be observed. I really think that AA was intended to do that.
While I agree that there is a place for "Creationists and other Idiots" the title of an Esquire magazine article, this month, I hope that people with spiritual beliefs also validate the place of evidence and science, in regard to 'what works' or not.
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Carol
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*ADMINISTRATOR*
Forum Queen
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Posts: 3238
Registered: Jan 2005 |
Posted October 20th, 2005 07:39 PM IP
I wasn't talking to you, Huis, LOL! I was posting back to Kid.....she asked Michel and/or I if we had any "feedback" for her.....which led to a rant that has been coming for a lonnnnnng time!
Zenith....I just turned 50 this year, but since Maya is only 10 and I'm hoping won't make me a Grandma for another 20 years or so.....I have my "bubbie" outfit that I wear every now and then to fit in with my friends, lol! You may borrow it anytime!
Mr. Bo.....you gonna stick around and get my "back" when the fireworks start?? 
smooooooooch.......Carol
CAROL SHOLITON
- President/CEO
- METHADONE SUPPORT ORG.
- http://www.MethadoneSupport.org
- Carol@MethadoneSupport.org
COME CHECK OUT OUR MAIN WEBSITE!!!!
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bodubya
*MODERATOR*
Posts: 95
Registered: Mar 2005 |
Posted October 20th, 2005 09:08 PM IP
I'll be right here. I'm not going anywhere.
There is a new agenda and it's called "growth".
Your new idea, this new way of communicating called internet, this film, this week with our guest. It's all part of it.
They should be happy. It's growth for them too.
I could start but I better be quiet.
By the way, nice timing.
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michelneg
Member
Posts: 82
Registered: Oct 2005 |
Posted October 20th, 2005 09:13 PM IP
Hi Bodubya,
You asked me a while back why I didn't focus on other addictions, like cocaine or alcoholism. It's simply because I found the recovery group first. Listened to what was going on in the lives of the people in this particular group and then let their stories dictate the direction of the film. If cocaine addiction had been the most pressing issue with the group, then that would have been the emphasis of the film.
I have a great respect for for people who work with addicts in recovery. It's obviously very tough work, but also immensely rewarding. The group leader, Millie, is a wonderful person and I think the heart and soul of the film. You know the film may be finished, but I am in contact with the subjects on a daily basis. I feel a real responsibility. And I check in often with Steve, Bill, Mario, Susie and the others. The good news is they're all doing very well.
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bodubya
*MODERATOR*
Posts: 95
Registered: Mar 2005 |
Posted October 20th, 2005 10:39 PM IP
Michel,
Thanks for the answer. I had wondered this on different occasions while watching the film and thinking of what you are going thru this week.
Remember that, in my opinion, our biggest tool for our journey in recovery is helping others. Bill W. found this when he first starting helping other alcoholics in 1935. I was pretty sure you had to see some of this in Millie and how she accomplished what she was doing and more importantly, how it helped her stay clean. She does it by helping one addict at a time at the clinic. My thoughts are with her. Any chance of getting her to post if Carol agree's?
Anyway,
I had mentioned a few posts back that I felt there were underlying problems with all in the film as is usually the case with all addicts and I might have been too harsh on them by stating that they seemed a little lazy about facing real life. I would like to apologize for those remarks. I understand what life gives us and it is not easy. I chose to do what I did when I abused opiates and it landed me in addiction and I am sure this was the case with some of the characters. Again thanks for answering my question and thanks for giving us your time.
Bo
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kid
Member
Posts: 32
Registered: Oct 2005 |
Posted October 21st, 2005 12:06 AM IP
[quote]Carol wrote:
I wasn't talking to you, Huis, LOL! I was posting back to Kid.....she asked Michel and/or I if we had any "feedback" for her.....which led to a rant that has been coming for a lonnnnnng time!
Carol, that's funny, I guess when I said something about not having any children, it made you think I was a girl, What I meant was, I'm a guy that never married and had no children involved in my long road of recovery to the here & now.
Carol thanks for explaining your MA concept. Your right , I guess idid open a box of worms.
Huis, I guess I misunderstood you earlier. Your cool with me, ok!. I don't know if I can find any factual info that "Scared Straight" works. I do remember a documentary where hard core convicts spoke to juveniles in hopes of making them think twice about heading down that road.
Michel, I do wish you & your film associates would make another documentary, "The Invisable Success Story" LOL
I know your tired of hearing that But really, PLEASE!!
kidcur
kidcur
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arlenewla
Member
Posts: 17
Registered: Oct 2005 |
Posted October 21st, 2005 08:32 AM IP
Hi,
I'm going to say this carefully because I am highly conflicted; emotionally & philosophically, about the subject of LONG-TERM MMT. I have previously posted that I was on MM for 15 years...am now in abstinent 12 Step recovery for 3 years. MM worked for me for the first 3 years ...then it didn't. It didn't, I believe, because I changed nothing else about myself which led to the need for more and more Methadone to quell feelings & behavior I chose not to deal with...those that had led to opiate addiction in the first instance.
Last night, as part of my own recovery & program, I spoke on a AA Hospitals & Institutions panel at a detox...the detox I had spent 5&1/2 months in, very long months, kicking Methadone. And while on the panel, I saw...once again...the pain and suffering of addicts trying to withdraw from Methadone. I witnessed those patients who looked like me 3 years ago...I "saw" me. They shivered, they sweated, they related the vomiting, the diarhhrea, the lack of sleep, the deep bone aches, the anxiety, that their skin was too tight for their body. I felt their pain. I felt their fear. I remembered thinking 3 years ago, "will I ever be able to "function" without Methadone?" I couldn't talk, I couldn't hold a thought, I couldn't read. I could barely walk.
And so I wonder about a medication that I had previously thought was "G-D's gift." A medication that can BOTH help some addicts in their journey to recovery AND a medication that is so toxic that the ability...the possibility...of withdrawing from it...becomes almost tantamount to climbing Mt. Everest. Best regards, Arlene Ford
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kid
Member
Posts: 32
Registered: Oct 2005 |
Posted October 21st, 2005 02:26 PM IP
Hey Arlene,
I too am in doubt about long term, I look at the before me and now what I'm like. It's true I have a life & couldn't have done it without methadone. I'm missing out on a lot because of the side affects of it.Sure it took away my craving for opiates & alcohol. It enabled me to work and establish credit and do most of the stuff people do early in life. But it took away a little too much. I don't get out of the house except for work, groceries & to get meds once a month.
I have no desire to get out to date or even go anywhere to meet someone. I've been fairly stable for 12 years on MMT, but I'm looking for something or somebody that might make me want to challenge the methadone.
No doubt I'll be on it the rest of my life if I don't. That's ok too.
Arlene if you would, please tell me what factors led you to your decision after 15 years of MMT to challenge and taper completely off it. Did you have family wanting you to?
kidcur
kidcur
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mrmichael67
*MODERATOR*
Posts: 1632
Registered: Jun 2005 |
Posted October 21st, 2005 06:02 PM IP
Quote:
Huis,
The scared straight theory is intended for young nieve, children. Not people of your caliber.
I'll say again - If it saves one childs life it will be worth it. You have a lot of smarts. It's a shame you are so bitter. I don't see what you believe your accomplishing by attacking Michels film, and saying the same negative bull over & over. If you channeled all that negativity constructively, why you could probably do something to help the stigma. |
I agree.
Once in a while you get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right--Robert Hunter
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zenith
*MODERATOR*
Posts: 1228
Registered: Apr 2005 |
Posted October 21st, 2005 06:16 PM IP
I just talked to two people at my clinic today, both significant others of current MMT patients. They had both recently chosen to taper off. One tapered from 115mg by reducing 10mg per week until he got to 40, then 5mg per week until 20, then 2mg per week until he was off. He said he experienced no withdrawal symptoms at all. The other person told a similar story. My own husband tapered slowly, over about 18 months, off a fairly low dose of about 55mg, and he also experienced no withdrawals. So it is possible to taper without all that agony, but you have to have the time and patience to do it. So many get down to a low dose and figure, "Heck, why am I giving this clinic all this $$ every week for a lousy 7mg a day?" and just walk off, and then get very very sick and go back out. This accounts for a lot of the horror stories you hear about MMT detox, I believe.
As for long term MMT use, I do not see it any differently than long term use of any other medication--insulin, cardiac drugs, lithium for mood disorders, etc. All these drugs have side effects. My youngest son has a neurological condition that requires him to take a potent anti psychotic medication (risperdal) as well as a blood pressure med for its sedating qualities (tenex). These meds can have unpleasant side effects. Moreover, if he goes more than a few hours past his dosing time, he becomes very agitated, sweaty, and hyperactive. So, you could say we are "tied" to this medication. However, it is rarely an issue, unless I forget to call the pharmacy in time or schedule an appointment. If we took him off these meds, which we have tried, he wouuld be unable to attend school and function normally. So, we cope. This is how I feel about my MMT. There are unpleasant sides, as well as a lot of naysayers. If I go without it, I relapse. Plain and simple. My brain needs help making endorphins, which it no longer reliably does. Much as diabetics need help because their pancreas no longer produces insulin. I believe much of the issues surrounding MMT stem from the belief that, since our disease may have been caused, in part, by our abuse of drugs, we do not deserve relief from the symptoms of that disease. People who are born with narcolepsy are certainly not denied the use of amphetamine drugs, nor are neurologist's offices picketed by angry citizens who do not want "those kind of people" in their neighborhoods. Of course, many "lifestyle" diseases are caused by things like eating the wrong foods, etc, and no one suggests denying them their meds. I truly believe that society is much better off with me being allowed to take this medication and as a result be a productive, working citizen, a good mom and wife, etc.
Not sure exactly the point I was hoping to make--I got interrupted a lot while typing this! lol But hope you can get something out of it. Thanks.
Zenith
Zenith
C.M.A. (certified methadone advocate)
ARM-Texas
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bodubya
*MODERATOR*
Posts: 95
Registered: Mar 2005 |
Posted October 21st, 2005 06:37 PM IP
Thanks, Zenith.
I actually got scared from reading the post refering to the ugly detox. I had forgotten about the many who have tapered correctly. Just to be safe I printed your post and will file it where I know I can refer to it when needed. Your sharing was well recieved here.
I get the "trapped" feeling like everyone else and I would bet that diabetics and others dependent on different medications feel trapped at times too.
Thanks again. I feel like I am at a meeting.
Bo
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Methadone Anonymous Forums :: SPEAKER/SPECIAL EVENT :: METHADONIA...The Filmmaker, Michel Negroponte :: An ongoing discussion with MICHEL NEGROPONTE
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From the beautiful mountains of Scottsdale, Arizona...(and the shopping ain't bad either, lol!)...... 
