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jndjus
Unregistered
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 Posted February 16th, 2009 11:06 PM IP   
very interesting atricle, i petioned the locale council and commandary a year ag and will recieve my council degrees this saturday and the commandary next month i am very interested in this side of the compass
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russellholland
Master Mason
Posts: 996
Registered: Feb 2005 |
Posted February 17th, 2009 02:42 AM IP
>Unfortunately for our pet theory, the Swiss flag is......(drum roll...) A White Cross, on a Red background!!!!
Quite right. The red cross of a white background is the Swiss Red Cross
"The history of Switzerland as a nation began in 1291, when three cantons in central Switzerland decided to defend their rights against the counts of Habsburg "
"1291 Knights Templar suffer a defeat at Acre. As a fighting force they cease to exist."
""The Pope conferred on the Templars the right to wear a red cross on their white mantles, which symbolised their willingness to suffer martyrdom in defending the Holy Land against the infidel.""
"While the cantons of the Swiss Confederation went to war flying their individual banners, they soon recognised the need for a common recognition sign, and as early as 1339 at the battle of Laupen, troops wore a long-armed narrow white linen cross stitched on their breasts, sleeves and thighs. "
Still looks good
(Edited by russellholland)
(Edited by russellholland)
Russell Holland
Caboolture 266
UGLQ
Australia
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Peter Taylor
Master Mason
Posts: 1946
Registered: Aug 2005 |
Posted February 17th, 2009 01:04 PM IP
So we now assume then that the KTs went "underground" in England? Thus the cross of St George?
Regards, Peter
PM Lodge Albert 448, PM Lodge Discovery 1789, Provincial Grand Secretary of Forfarshire, Hon. 54, 164, 299, 327, 486; PZ RA Chapter Albert 503, Installed Mark Master, AASR (30th), PMWS Rose Croix, ROoS, KT, KTP, OSM, RCC, RAM, CC, SRIS, Squaremen
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skiendhu
Super Moderator
Posts: 2627
Registered: Dec 2004 |
Posted February 17th, 2009 02:55 PM IP
Quote:
Peter Taylor wrote:
So we now assume then that the KTs went "underground" in England? Thus the cross of St George?
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Wild imaginings or wishful thinking, take your pick.
I refuse to write the "C" word although it would fit admirably.
Practical experience is the best teacher
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Mozard
Master Mason
Posts: 369
Registered: Aug 2006 |
Posted February 17th, 2009 03:31 PM IP
Skiendhu wrote:
Quote:
it would have been unsafe for them to tie up in any port in Europe |
In this point the French and the British tend to make always the same mistake: to ignore the fact the Templar prosecution, surprisingly, did not have effect in Spain and Portugal (and there were not few of them here). The Order was dissolved, but no Templar knight was ever touched here. They were let free to join other Orders, some of them bearing the same initiatic background. Probably the best known is the Order of Calatrava (Calatrava was an arab castle taken by the Templars, build in an area with deep esoteric traditions hardly hidden today behind the catholic ritual). The Order of Montesa also became a semi-templar order full of former TKs. In this sense the Templar history of Spain is full of legends, obviously fed by the fact that the Temple Order remained here untouched, just disguised.
I wonder if the reason why the templars were left in peace could be related in some sense with the particular political and cultural situation of Eastern Spain (Kingdom of Aragon) in the late Middle Ages. The South of France was under dominion of this kingdom and the Aragonian king heartly supported the cathars. There was kind of a cultural identity in the Mediterranean coast from Nice (France) to Valencia (Spain), sharing legends and religious backgroung (all this area is full of black virgins and presumed holy grails...)
(Edited by Mozard)
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S. T. Lehane
Master Mason
Posts: 1568
Registered: Oct 2006 |
Posted February 17th, 2009 05:08 PM IP
Quote:
Mozard wrote:
In this point the French and the British tend to make always the same mistake: to ignore the fact the Templar prosecution, surprisingly, did not have effect in Spain and Portugal (and there were not few of them here). |
Is there any evidence they were really persecuted outside of France? I think if you dig in here, you'll find the rest of the European Monarchs kind of paid lip-service to the Papal Bull, and/or just ignored it, including Spain, Portugal, England, Scotland, and Germany. Only France, and a few parts of Italy were really "on board" with that particular Papal Edict.
That sort of answers the question, where did the fleet go? It went to freindly ports.
I'll have more on this topic later...
(Edited by S. T. Lehane)
Fraternally!
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russellholland
Master Mason
Posts: 996
Registered: Feb 2005 |
Posted February 17th, 2009 05:09 PM IP
>So we now assume then that the KTs went "underground" in England? Thus the cross of St George?
Peter, you might be on to something there but I would not assume it without some googling.
"In the First Crusade he was reported as turning the battle for the Christians at Antioch in 1099 when he appeared at the head of a heavenly army of white horses, his followers displaying white banners, after which the Crusaders adopted him as their especial patron."
"George was adopted as the patron saint of soldiers after he was said to have appeared to the Crusader army at the Battle of Antioch in 1098. Many similar stories were transmitted to the West by Crusaders who had heard them from Byzantine troops, and were circulated further by the troubadours. When Richard 1 was campaigning in Palestine in 1191-92 he put the army under the protection of St George."
"St George's Cross was originally the flag of Genoa and was adopted by England and the City of London in 1190 for their ships entering the Mediterranean to benefit from the protection of the powerful Genoese fleet. The maritime Republic of Genoa was rising and going to become, with its rival Venice, one of the most important powers in the world. The English Monarch paid an annual tribute to the Doge of Genoa for this privilege. It was adopted for the uniform of English soldiers during the Crusades of the eleventh, twelfth and thirteenth centuries, particularly by the Knights Templar."
That seems to demonstrate that the adoption of the Cross of St George is closely related to the Crusades and the Templars but of course arises before the Templars were repressed.
Those with an interest in history will note similarities in WW1 stories of St George
Russell Holland
Caboolture 266
UGLQ
Australia
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Peter Taylor
Master Mason
Posts: 1946
Registered: Aug 2005 |
Posted February 18th, 2009 04:27 AM IP
.... and of course the Templar Cross was a Croix Patté not a St George cross!
The Templar Cross and the cross of the crusaders is different.
Regards, Peter
PM Lodge Albert 448, PM Lodge Discovery 1789, Provincial Grand Secretary of Forfarshire, Hon. 54, 164, 299, 327, 486; PZ RA Chapter Albert 503, Installed Mark Master, AASR (30th), PMWS Rose Croix, ROoS, KT, KTP, OSM, RCC, RAM, CC, SRIS, Squaremen
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Magus Masonica
Unregistered
Posts:
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Posted March 5th, 2009 01:17 AM IP
If the KT where the first Pirates then who where the first cabin boy's 
Seriously, this is an awesome conversation that has given me much to think about.
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Freemason Discussion Group :: Freemasonry :: The Knights Templar :: Pirates
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