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Admin
Administrator
Posts: 1227
Registered: Dec 2004 |
 Posted April 2nd, 2005 04:59 PM IP   
Can Noachides become Freemasons ?
Is it in sink with the Noahide covenant ,
the 7 commandments that all mankind is
bound by?
Rick 
Kenilworth #29 Red Deer, Alberta, Canada
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Dave Mavity
Super Moderator
Posts: 2371
Registered: Feb 2005 |
Posted April 2nd, 2005 08:35 PM IP
Bro.:
Please bring me up to speed on this- I'm completely unfamiliar.
S&F,
Dave Mavity
Academia Lodge #847 F&AM, Oakland, CA: Traditional Observance, baby.
Golden City Lodge #1 AF&AM, Golden, CO
Oakland, CA Valley A&ASR
Intra Nobis Regnum Iehova
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Admin
Administrator
Posts: 1227
Registered: Dec 2004 |
Posted April 2nd, 2005 10:10 PM IP
Quote:
Please bring me up to speed on this- I'm completely unfamiliar. |
http://www.moshiach.com/action/mora...ty/in-depth.php
This is a good place to start..........
I found it very informative.........
Rick
Kenilworth #29 Red Deer, Alberta, Canada
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Jim148
Unregistered
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Posted November 6th, 2006 05:25 PM IP
Quote:
Admin wrote:
Can Noachides become Freemasons ?
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I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be able to. I certainly wouldn't blackball them based solely on that fact. There is a church here in Ft. Worth that has a good website (I hope the link still works) with alot of good information.
http://webpages.charter.net/chavura...oach/index.html
Assuming the link still works (I can't access it from where I am), hopefully this can be of some help.
In Lvx,
Jim
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A.T.Smith
Master Mason
Posts: 1739
Registered: Jul 2006 |
Posted January 12th, 2007 10:00 PM IP
Noah is quite an interesting charachter in the history of Freemasonry who deserves a great deal more attention than he presently receives. As for the original question on this page "can Noachides become Freemasons" I cannot comment, as I first read the term in Andersons constitutions of 1738.
The link posted above (public action, etc...) covers the subject very well. The jist of it is: that in Andersons Const. of 1723- "Of God and Religion" it is written "A Mason is obliged by his tenure to obey the moral law, and if he rightly understands the art he will never be a stupid atheist nor an irreligious libertine." This is printed verbatim in most modern Constitutions (I have Canada, NewYork and UGLE in front of me)
Now, the item were looking at here, is that 15 years later when Bro. Anderson revised his own Constitution, it was printed "A Mason is obliged to obey the moral law as a true Noachida...."
Mackey wrote that Anderson made this alteration "without authority" and apperantly, Andersons successors Entick, and Norhtouck felt the same, so that the wording returned to the original and has remained the same ever since.
On the other hand, L. Dermott, who was basically Andersons equivalent In the Antient Grand Lodge (Champions of the Holy Royal Arch I should add); also refered to the Noahchida in his Ahmin Rhezon (basically the Antients constitution)
The "public action" link above is alluding that Dermott simply took the notion from Anderson, but I personally think he deserves a bit more respect than that. (I'm a bit of a fan of the Antient Grand Lodge)
Certainly Mackeys opinion holds a great deal of weight, but shoudn't Anderson and Dermotts also?
The Constitution of 1723 which we reprint year after year, was not an official publication, it was Andersons private financial project. It was not until January 1738 that the Grand Master ordered Anderson to print their new book of Constitutions, which they recomended as " the only book for for use in lodges"
Anyways, I seem to be rambling a little (maybe a lot), but I think, but for a wee bit of editing, the Noachidae would have played a MUCH greater role in our Craft.
From 1738:
"After the flood, Noah and his 3 sons, having preserved the knowledge of the arts and sciences, communicated it to their growing off-spring. who were all of one language and speech. And it came to pass as they journeyed from the East towards the West, they found a plain in the land of Shinar, and dwelt there together as Noachidae, or sons of Noah."
(Edited by A.T.Smith)
(Edited by A.T.Smith)
(Edited by A.T.Smith)
(Edited by A.T.Smith)
Under the Shadow of Thy Wings
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skiendhu
Super Moderator
Posts: 2627
Registered: Dec 2004 |
Posted January 19th, 2007 04:38 PM IP
I would be interested to learn exactly what the connection is between Noah and his ark and operative stone masonry and/or Freemasonry.
And was it not the children of Lamech who preserved the knowledge of the arts?
Practical experience is the best teacher
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A.T.Smith
Master Mason
Posts: 1739
Registered: Jul 2006 |
Posted January 19th, 2007 05:09 PM IP
It was indeed the children of Lamech, Noah was his first born son. (Gen. 5:25-28)
As for Noah's Ark, Anderson wrote:
"That Edifice though of wood only, was fabricated by Geometry as nicely as any stone building (like true ship building to this day) a curious and large piece of Architecture"
I also came across another reference to Noah which is perhaps beyond my masonic progress.
In C.C. Hunt's "Masonic Concordance of the Holy BIble" he wrote:
"The - Ark of Refuge- , will be recognized as an emblem of the Third Degree.......(Anchor and Ark)...."
I'll comment on this one in about a month.
(Edited by A.T.Smith)
Under the Shadow of Thy Wings
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skiendhu
Super Moderator
Posts: 2627
Registered: Dec 2004 |
Posted January 19th, 2007 09:34 PM IP
Quote:
A.T.Smith wrote:
It was indeed the children of Lamech, Noah was his first born son. (Gen. 5:25-28)
My understanding is that Lamech had three sons, Jabal, Jubal and tubalcain, and one daughter called Naamab, and that Noah was a direct decendent of Lamech.
As for Noah's Ark, Anderson wrote:
"That Edifice though of wood only, was fabricated by Geometry as nicely as any stone building (like true ship building to this day) a curious and large piece of Architecture"
Well, you could say that of anything that is fabricated by geometry, there's plenty to choose from in prehistory.
I also came across another reference to Noah which is perhaps beyond my masonic progress.
In C.C. Hunt's "Masonic Concordance of the Holy BIble" he wrote:
"The - Ark of Refuge- , will be recognized as an emblem of the Third Degree.......(Anchor and Ark)...."
I'll comment on this one in about a month.
(Edited by A.T.Smith)
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Beats the hell outa me, I'll look forward to your comments on that.
Practical experience is the best teacher
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Dave Mavity
Super Moderator
Posts: 2371
Registered: Feb 2005 |
Posted January 19th, 2007 10:52 PM IP
Since the original post, (April '05!?!?!?!? We've been here that long?!?!?!) been doing some research. A Noachide is essentially a non- Jew who follows the Noachide Law, essentially the 10 commandments. Supposed to be the descendents of Noah. Interesting in it's implications, as it seems that there is a distinction between a Noachide, and someone who fully follows the Torah. I haven't quite puzzled that out yet, except that it may refer to a split within the Hebrew people, which is furthermore evidenced, I think, by Enoch being an ancestor of that line, and a Patriarch, but given relatively little mention in the OT.
Quote:
A.T.Smith wrote:
Noah is quite an interesting character in the history of Freemasonry who deserves a great deal more attention than he presently receives.
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I agree, particularly after some digging. Apparently, a key figure in Freemasonry, long ago.
And, indeed. Let's talk about that when you get yourself Raised. I think you may have stumbled on something interesting.
Dave Mavity
Academia Lodge #847 F&AM, Oakland, CA: Traditional Observance, baby.
Golden City Lodge #1 AF&AM, Golden, CO
Oakland, CA Valley A&ASR
Intra Nobis Regnum Iehova
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A.T.Smith
Master Mason
Posts: 1739
Registered: Jul 2006 |
Posted January 20th, 2007 01:07 AM IP
Stumbled!!!.......How Dare You!!!!!! 
For shure, couple more weeks.
Under the Shadow of Thy Wings
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Dave Mavity
Super Moderator
Posts: 2371
Registered: Feb 2005 |
Posted January 20th, 2007 05:51 PM IP
eh...you know what I mean.
Dave Mavity
Academia Lodge #847 F&AM, Oakland, CA: Traditional Observance, baby.
Golden City Lodge #1 AF&AM, Golden, CO
Oakland, CA Valley A&ASR
Intra Nobis Regnum Iehova
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russellholland
Master Mason
Posts: 996
Registered: Feb 2005 |
Posted January 21st, 2007 10:53 PM IP
>I would be interested to learn exactly what the connection is between Noah and his ark and operative stone masonry and/or Freemasonry
Skiendhu
I wonder if the stone circles that were designed for astronomy might be the link.
Thus, could it be that
- the descendents of Noah, understanding that world catastrophes were regularly induced by large bodies travelling around the solar system on eccentric orbits
- devised stone circles for observing and predicting the progress of such bodies
- developed a body of esoteric masons able to do the astronomical calculations necessary for those stone observatories.
Hence the sons of Noah (assuming the flood story has a physical reality) might have found it necessary to develop a group of scientific masons that was given the secrets of predicting planetary catastrophes
One of the sites may have been in the Orkneys where there appears to be a village of standardised dwellings where only the remains of certain parts of animals are found. A possible deduction is that the village was a contract development and the food was imported for a project that required a population beyond what local agriculture could feed
See Uriel's Machine for details and Civilisation One
Cheers
Russell
Russell Holland
Caboolture 266
UGLQ
Australia
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Peter Taylor
Master Mason
Posts: 1946
Registered: Aug 2005 |
Posted January 22nd, 2007 04:34 AM IP
Quote:
russellholland wrote:
One of the sites may have been in the Orkneys where there appears to be a village of standardised dwellings where only the remains of certain parts of animals are found. A possible deduction is that the village was a contract development and the food was imported for a project that required a population beyond what local agriculture could feed |
Russell,
I think you are refering to the Groove Ware people? (so named after the grooves cut into there pottery)
They certainly had detailed knowledge of many things, including running water and sanitation! The Buildings at Skarrabra (or Skara Brae as it is known now) on the Orkneys, do appear to have alignment sites designed picked up the coincidence of the Sun, Venus and Mercury, this occurs every 440 years (I think).
Radiocarbon dating in the early 1970s showed the settlement dates from the late Neolithic, was actually inhabited between 3200 BC and 2200 BC.
Were now going back in time between 4000 and 5000 years, the question has to be, how often do you need to witness something before it becomes common knowledge. I mean how many times someone recorded the coincidence of the Sun, Venus and Mercury before they understood that it would occur every 440 years!!!! Then plan and design their habitation to capture it!
It seems that the coincidence of the Sun, Venus and Mercury happened at the building of KS’s Temple, at the birth of Christ…….. the Grand [b[Shekinah[/b] indeed! Guided by a star?
Another interesting point is that these people were of Nordic origin, probably fair skinned, light haired and tall. They simply disappeared from various sites across the British Isles, and suddenly tall fair skinned “giants” appeared in Egypt! Hmmmm? Goliath anyone?
Regards, Peter
PM Lodge Albert 448, PM Lodge Discovery 1789, Provincial Grand Secretary of Forfarshire, Hon. 54, 164, 299, 327, 486; PZ RA Chapter Albert 503, Installed Mark Master, AASR (30th), PMWS Rose Croix, ROoS, KT, KTP, OSM, RCC, RAM, CC, SRIS, Squaremen
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A.T.Smith
Master Mason
Posts: 1739
Registered: Jul 2006 |
Posted January 22nd, 2007 05:23 PM IP
Yep, you gotta respect Knight and Lomas' conclusions on the Shekinah. I just may need to re-read those books once I'm raised next month.
Cheers
Under the Shadow of Thy Wings
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Dave Mavity
Super Moderator
Posts: 2371
Registered: Feb 2005 |
Posted January 23rd, 2007 01:28 AM IP
Quote:
A.T.Smith wrote:
Yep, you gotta respect Knight and Lomas' conclusions on the Shekinah.
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Uh...careful. Consider that a possible theory.
Dave Mavity
Academia Lodge #847 F&AM, Oakland, CA: Traditional Observance, baby.
Golden City Lodge #1 AF&AM, Golden, CO
Oakland, CA Valley A&ASR
Intra Nobis Regnum Iehova
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Peter Taylor
Master Mason
Posts: 1946
Registered: Aug 2005 |
Posted January 23rd, 2007 04:02 AM IP
Correct Dave, there are a lot of leaps of faith in their conclusions, although the Groove Wear people and the mythology that surrounds them is fascinating.
Regards, Peter
PM Lodge Albert 448, PM Lodge Discovery 1789, Provincial Grand Secretary of Forfarshire, Hon. 54, 164, 299, 327, 486; PZ RA Chapter Albert 503, Installed Mark Master, AASR (30th), PMWS Rose Croix, ROoS, KT, KTP, OSM, RCC, RAM, CC, SRIS, Squaremen
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Wayne Cowley
Unregistered
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Posted January 23rd, 2007 07:18 AM IP
I'd go further Peter and suggest that there are leaps in the logic of their conclusions - particularly in The Hiram Key
Wayne
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Peter Taylor
Master Mason
Posts: 1946
Registered: Aug 2005 |
Posted January 23rd, 2007 07:43 AM IP
Quote:
Wayne Cowley wrote:
I'd go further Peter and suggest that there are leaps in the logic of their conclusions - particularly in The Hiram Key
Wayne
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Agreed!
Regards, Peter
PM Lodge Albert 448, PM Lodge Discovery 1789, Provincial Grand Secretary of Forfarshire, Hon. 54, 164, 299, 327, 486; PZ RA Chapter Albert 503, Installed Mark Master, AASR (30th), PMWS Rose Croix, ROoS, KT, KTP, OSM, RCC, RAM, CC, SRIS, Squaremen
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A.T.Smith
Master Mason
Posts: 1739
Registered: Jul 2006 |
Posted January 23rd, 2007 04:47 PM IP
Oh, I'm completely with you all on that,.....there was certainly a good deal of "Leaping " going on.
Admittedly these were the first books I read on Masonry, and I've learned a great deal of Fact.........and Fiction since then.
But I can't deny that they made some reasonable arguments on (some) of their points.
Perhaps I should have said: "Respect their research, and admire their convictions".........(Respect, not exalt)
(Damn it, I was almost finished writing my "Scotch Prince of the Divine Shekinah" Degree)
Under the Shadow of Thy Wings
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skiendhu
Super Moderator
Posts: 2627
Registered: Dec 2004 |
Posted February 13th, 2007 08:37 PM IP
Quote:
A.T.Smith wrote:
(Damn it, I was almost finished writing my "Scotch Prince of the Divine Shekinah" Degree)
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That would be Scottish Prince.
Scotch you drink, Scottish you are.....or not
Practical experience is the best teacher
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A.T.Smith
Master Mason
Posts: 1739
Registered: Jul 2006 |
Posted February 14th, 2007 06:51 PM IP
Hey, It's my degree, I'll name it after liquor if I please!!!
Under the Shadow of Thy Wings
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Dave Mavity
Super Moderator
Posts: 2371
Registered: Feb 2005 |
Posted February 14th, 2007 07:23 PM IP
Quote:
A.T.Smith wrote:
Hey, It's my degree, I'll name it after liquor if I please!!!
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Finally, a Degree I can get my teeth into. How do I petition?
Dave Mavity
Academia Lodge #847 F&AM, Oakland, CA: Traditional Observance, baby.
Golden City Lodge #1 AF&AM, Golden, CO
Oakland, CA Valley A&ASR
Intra Nobis Regnum Iehova
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A.T.Smith
Master Mason
Posts: 1739
Registered: Jul 2006 |
Posted February 14th, 2007 10:28 PM IP
I'll keep ya posted!
Under the Shadow of Thy Wings
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skiendhu
Super Moderator
Posts: 2627
Registered: Dec 2004 |
Posted March 5th, 2007 12:57 PM IP
I see that this thread has drifted off course quite a bit, maybe we should steer Noah and his big boat in the right direction.
I still have difficulty equating the story of Noah with the building of KST and Freemasonry in general. If there is a connection there I guess I'm too dumb to see it.
I wish somebody would clarify this.
Practical experience is the best teacher
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Dave Mavity
Super Moderator
Posts: 2371
Registered: Feb 2005 |
Posted March 5th, 2007 01:59 PM IP
Well, apparently, we used the Legend of Noah before we started the Legend of HA that we currently use. Seems as if it was short- lived, but Mackey goes on and on about it. Too much, in fact. In his "Symbolism of Freemasonry" he spends about 3/4 of the book in a description of current Masonry having descended through Noah to Solomon, with the building of the Temple bringing together this group, with the Phonecian version of Masonry which had descended, somewhat coruupted from the same basic source.
It's speculative as hell, and a little annoying. The last 1/4 of the book is intriguing, however.
Dave Mavity
Academia Lodge #847 F&AM, Oakland, CA: Traditional Observance, baby.
Golden City Lodge #1 AF&AM, Golden, CO
Oakland, CA Valley A&ASR
Intra Nobis Regnum Iehova
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skiendhu
Super Moderator
Posts: 2627
Registered: Dec 2004 |
Posted March 5th, 2007 02:36 PM IP
Now, if the story had decended from Enoch to Solomon rather than from Noah, it would make more sense IMO.
According to the story we were told, Noah was more a kind of zoo keeper and wannabe sailor than a Mason.
I think Enoch has more to offer spiritually and symbolically.
Practical experience is the best teacher
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Dave Mavity
Super Moderator
Posts: 2371
Registered: Feb 2005 |
Posted March 5th, 2007 02:42 PM IP
Quote:
skiendhu wrote:
Now, if the story had decended from Enoch to Solomon rather than from Noah, it would make more sense IMO.
According to the story we were told, Noah was more a kind of zoo keeper and wannabe sailor than a Mason.
I think Enoch has more to offer spiritually and symbolically.
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Agreed, completely.
What he tries to do here is force a theory tying Noah, through Solomon, to Tyre, and has these two forms of "Masonry" meeting back up at the building of KST.
It doesn't work, but, hey...it's his theory. Pike isn't the only one who made erroneous speculations.
Dave Mavity
Academia Lodge #847 F&AM, Oakland, CA: Traditional Observance, baby.
Golden City Lodge #1 AF&AM, Golden, CO
Oakland, CA Valley A&ASR
Intra Nobis Regnum Iehova
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A.T.Smith
Master Mason
Posts: 1739
Registered: Jul 2006 |
Posted December 9th, 2007 05:59 PM IP
Quote:
A.T.Smith wrote:
It was indeed the children of Lamech, Noah was his first born son. (Gen. 5:25-28)
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I was just looking through this and realized that, yes, Noah was the Son of Lamech. Lamech the second that is, some umpteen generations after Lamech the 1st.
Under the Shadow of Thy Wings
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Freemason Discussion Group :: Freemasonry :: Judaism And Kabbalah :: Noachides |
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