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S. T. Lehane
Master Mason
Posts: 1568
Registered: Oct 2006 |
 Posted October 24th, 2007 04:23 PM IP   
Speaking of allegories and symbols... Brethren, I’d just like to hear some theories on this.
What do you make of the Book of Revelation? How do you interpret it? Is it predicting some future events or is it an allegory for the destruction of Israel in 70 A.D.?
Certainly, it’s one of the most misquoted, misunderstood and inaccessible texts of the Bible. It’s symbolism is often incomprehensible, and it’s quite different from all other texts in the Bible.
But what do you think it’s trying to say? Is there some key to deciphering it?
Personally, I’ve read it, re-read it, and re-re-read it, and in the end, I’m just not sure what to make of it. But I’ve had plenty of arguments with fundis who seem pretty certain that the European Union is mentioned in there somewhere, that we’re all going to have bar codes on our hands or foreheads, and that very soon, they’re finally going to get to say, “See, I told you so!”
What do you make of the idea of prophecy in general? Are there other esoteric arts capable of divining or prognosticating of the future, or is all just “codswallop”?
Fraternally!
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Negredo
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Posted October 26th, 2007 08:55 PM IP
Well I plan on being there sucking the marrow out of a femur bone like a popcickle, dressed in someone's skin like an Aztec priest.
Mavity will wear the usual: snakeskin tracksuit and a double-barreled shotgun.
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Dave Mavity
Super Moderator
Posts: 2371
Registered: Feb 2005 |
Posted October 26th, 2007 11:25 PM IP
Yeah, plus, as usual, I will demand that the beast with the 7 heads harassing the nice lady with the 12 stars stop his chaotic mirth- making and blood- letting every 15 minutes so I can take a smoke and cocktail break. I'll bring the picnic blanket, canned Martinis, and Bread albums.
ST, there are a couple of pretty decent explanations for St. John's Apocalypse- as an allegorical description of the then current political climate, or a Gnostic allegory of the descent of the Christos. I favor the latter, but then again, I would.
Dave Mavity
Academia Lodge #847 F&AM, Oakland, CA: Traditional Observance, baby.
Golden City Lodge #1 AF&AM, Golden, CO
Oakland, CA Valley A&ASR
Intra Nobis Regnum Iehova
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Dave Mavity
Super Moderator
Posts: 2371
Registered: Feb 2005 |
Posted October 27th, 2007 09:28 PM IP
Yow. Who killed this thread? I'm thinking Negredo.
Was the Bread album thing a little over the top? "And I would give eveeeeeerythiiing I own, give up my liiiife, my heart, my home...."
C'mon, sing along, dammit. The Beast awaits. And he loves Bread.
Dave Mavity
Academia Lodge #847 F&AM, Oakland, CA: Traditional Observance, baby.
Golden City Lodge #1 AF&AM, Golden, CO
Oakland, CA Valley A&ASR
Intra Nobis Regnum Iehova
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Cookie
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Posted October 30th, 2007 11:25 PM IP
Dave,
I believe "Revelations" was a veiled political commentary concerning the perceved demise of the Roman Empire and the fiddling around by Nero. It was definitely heavily influenced by Gnostic allegory. An interesting note concerning the "Rapture" and the end of the world. This relatively "modern" interpretation by "christian" Fundamentalists became very popular early in the 20th Century after being promulgated in England by Darby and the Plymouth Brethren. Around the time that Darby had his "insight" Europeans were just starting to reestablish anad actually study Islamic traditions and influence. Is it not remarkable that until the Western rediscovery of the Shi'a belief of the return of the 12th Imam in a Jihad that the "christians" virtually ignored "Revelations"?
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Dave Mavity
Super Moderator
Posts: 2371
Registered: Feb 2005 |
Posted October 31st, 2007 01:10 PM IP
It is, that. Frankly, I always wondered why Revelation was included by the Council of Nicea. It's a radical damned book, really...as you pointed out, chock full of Gnostic allegory and political commentary.
I was aware of Darby & Co., and their development of the current "endtimes" interpretation, but not aware of the European study of Islamic tradition. Mighty interesting.
Dave Mavity
Academia Lodge #847 F&AM, Oakland, CA: Traditional Observance, baby.
Golden City Lodge #1 AF&AM, Golden, CO
Oakland, CA Valley A&ASR
Intra Nobis Regnum Iehova
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S. T. Lehane
Master Mason
Posts: 1568
Registered: Oct 2006 |
Posted October 31st, 2007 02:20 PM IP
So if we can rule out the modern fundamentalist interpretations of Revelations, then Christianity does not actually predict an End of the World, correct?
(Edited by S. T. Lehane)
Fraternally!
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Dave Mavity
Super Moderator
Posts: 2371
Registered: Feb 2005 |
Posted October 31st, 2007 05:27 PM IP
Quote:
S. T. Lehane wrote:
So if we can rule out the modern fundamentalist interpretations of Revelations, then Christianity does not actually predict an End of the World, correct?
(Edited by S. T. Lehane)
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Bearing in mind that that is my personal view, correct. Like Cookie said, the current belief in the end of the world interpretation really grew out of a movement in the late 19th- early 20th centuries. Most "High Church" religions don't talk about it. As a former Episcopalian (and the same probably holds true for you as a Catholic, S.T.) the "Rapture" as a theory doesn't even exist. And the "second Coming" is never, if you really listen closely, expressed as an actual physical event.
Here's kind of an interesting exercise:
Without getting into a lot of the symbolic detail, approach this Book as a Gnostic or "neo- Gnostic (I love that term- Cookie invented it) would. Think of the Christos or Christ in terms of a spiritual force, rather than the man, Jesus (although we view Jesus as having been the perfect Exemplar of this force). In that sense, the Second Coming is a little closer to an allegory of an individual's personal spiritual awakening than it is Jesus and the anti- Christ slugging it out on the plains of Meggido. The numbers and rich symbolism are at turns gnostic, alchemical, astrological, etc., and make for a good excuse to look at those disciplines to get more understanding out of this Book.
Personally, I believe this one and John are the two most important Books in the accepted NT, and it's my whacked- out opinion that is why we mention these two Sts. John in our modern Ritual.
Hey, it's a theory.
Dave Mavity
Academia Lodge #847 F&AM, Oakland, CA: Traditional Observance, baby.
Golden City Lodge #1 AF&AM, Golden, CO
Oakland, CA Valley A&ASR
Intra Nobis Regnum Iehova
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Cookie
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Posted October 31st, 2007 11:37 PM IP
S.T. and Dave,
Love this thread! I tend to approach the "second coming" and "Armageddon" from a metaphysical angle. As the Christos stated "I Am the Alpha and the Omega" and the Gospel of John states "First there was the Word (Logos) and the Word was made flesh." This clearly teaches that the Cristos was, to use the words of a famous prayer, "As it was at the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end." This also directly contradicts fundamentalist dogma of the "End Times." You see, since the Deity exists (I AM that I AM) outside of the perceptions of man, ie: outside of time and space. To God (and the souls of the passed) the beginning and the end are now. Once we pass to the Celestial Lodge on High; we will be at the creation and the end. In other words the "Final Judgement" is not one time and place before God, but instantly upon liberation of the soul from the earthly ties of time and space.
Spectemur Agendo!
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S. T. Lehane
Master Mason
Posts: 1568
Registered: Oct 2006 |
Posted November 1st, 2007 07:52 PM IP
Just to play devil's advocate here, it's a pretty common claim amongst that the fundis that "Chernobyl" is the Ukrainian word for "wormwood" -- a curious reference that shows up in Revelation 8:10-11. And again in Chapter 9.
10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
In Chapter 9, wormwood is again described as a "star that fell from heaven."
Any thoughts on this one?
Fraternally!
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Dave Mavity
Super Moderator
Posts: 2371
Registered: Feb 2005 |
Posted November 1st, 2007 10:02 PM IP
Any time you see the word "wormwood" in the Bible, Aramaic or Greek, it's a metaphor for "bitterness," primarily as an emotion. You'll see it all over the OT as well, used poetically.
Dunno about the word "Chernobyl", but I wouldn't take the word of fundies for that.
Dave Mavity
Academia Lodge #847 F&AM, Oakland, CA: Traditional Observance, baby.
Golden City Lodge #1 AF&AM, Golden, CO
Oakland, CA Valley A&ASR
Intra Nobis Regnum Iehova
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Cookie
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Posted November 1st, 2007 11:26 PM IP
Called a brother who was born in the Ukraine and asked him what Chernobyl meant. He said that it meant "black stalks"... it appears that the area surrounding the city is what we in the states would call a swamp or wetlands. The excess water as it deepens , expands and kills trees leaving "back stalks" standing in shallow water.
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S. T. Lehane
Master Mason
Posts: 1568
Registered: Oct 2006 |
Posted November 2nd, 2007 01:41 AM IP
I think this is what happens when you have a threeway translation. A common word was translated slightly differently in English and Ukranian.
This is from From Wikipedia (Chernobyl):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl
"The city name comes from a combination of chornyi (÷îđíčé, black) and byllia (áčëë˙, grass blades or stalks); hence it literally means black grass or black stalks. It is named after the Ukrainian word for the plant wormwood. Wormwood or absinth grows abundantly in the Chernobyl area. Folk etymologies have appeared after the 1986 nuclear incident, which represent attempts to link the accident to prophecies in the Book of Revelation in the Christian New Testament. For these, see Chernobyl in the popular consciousness..."
Here's the "Wikiality" article that talks about Chernobyl and the book of Revelations:
"Chernobyl in the popular consciousness."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherno...r_consciousness
"the word chornobyl’ does not appear in the Ukrainian bible. The original Greek (Άψινθος, apsinthos) is translated as polyn (полин , which refers to the genus Artemisia, which includes both the mugwort (Ukrainian: polyn zvychaynyy 'common polyn', or chornobyl’), and the wormwood (polyn hirkyy 'bitter polyn')."
"In contrast to the English wormwood, chornobyl’ bears positive poetic connotations in folklore, for a number of reasons. Its strong smell is evocative of the steppe, as various species of Artemisia are widespread there. Chornobyl’ roots were used in folk medicine for deworming and to heal neurotic conditions, although an overdose could lead to neurological disorders, including memory loss. In Ukrainian folklore, it is used to banish the mischievous water nymphs called rusalky. It is not clear why Chernobyl should be named after such a plant, since the town itself is in the wooded and swampy Polissia region, quite far from the steppe."
(Edited by S. T. Lehane)
Fraternally!
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Lamed120
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Posted December 10th, 2007 10:22 PM IP
I like Cookie's take on Revelations. From my little knowledge of Gnosticism I do know that the focus was on the "inner wisdom"..the spirituality and presence of God and Jesus within each individual. Basically, not solely existent outside of oneself.
I haven't extensively done so yet, but I enjoy employing Carl Jung's archetypal method of Analytical Psychology to the entities and symbols in the Revelations. As a functional allegory it explains the "Armageddon" of ones soul and spirit, the return of the Messiah and redemption of man. The political/social significances that were present when John (which John?) wrote it on Patmos undoubtedly contributed to the nature of the writing. John apparently needed some psycho-analysis! But this is just a segment of MY take!
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mikeh935
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Posted April 13th, 2008 05:47 PM IP
If we are to go by the Mayan calender we would need to be kissin our asses good bye on or around December 23rd 2012
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Freemason Discussion Group :: Freemasonry :: Religions And The Craft :: The Apocalypse |
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