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Dave Mavity
Super Moderator
Posts: 2371
Registered: Feb 2005 |
 Posted August 5th, 2007 10:30 PM IP   
Since S.T. opened the heretical floodgates on that other thread (tsk, tsk, Lehane, don't you know you should never question authority?  ) I reckon it might be interesting to run roughshod over the idea of physical death followed by physical resurrection, which, of course, is also codswallop.
Anybody wanna play?
Dave Mavity
Academia Lodge #847 F&AM, Oakland, CA: Traditional Observance, baby.
Golden City Lodge #1 AF&AM, Golden, CO
Oakland, CA Valley A&ASR
Intra Nobis Regnum Iehova
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skiendhu
Super Moderator
Posts: 2627
Registered: Dec 2004 |
Posted August 5th, 2007 11:03 PM IP
You seem to have taken a liking to that word, it does have a nice ring to it, eh!
I'm thinking of Lazarus as well as JC. And of course there's also Enoch and Noah who were apparently taken "bodily" up to heaven.
Presumably on a magic carpet. 
None of which are any more likely than a virgin birth.
I'm surprised that Moses didn't get preferential treatment as he was such a great guy with a face to fire association with God.
Of course JC would have to have been resurrected otherwise how would he be availlable for a second coming. The rest of them don't carry his importance, so we wont see them again.
Practical experience is the best teacher
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Mozard
Master Mason
Posts: 369
Registered: Aug 2006 |
Posted August 6th, 2007 12:00 PM IP
I am Christian and I believe in Resurrection. Obviously such a difficult point is constantly jobbed by the mind of a believer through his life, as it is an unbelievable thing. I am going to expose briefly some considerations.
Skiendhu wrote:
Quote:
I'm thinking of Lazarus as well as JC. And of course there's also Enoch and Noah who were apparently taken "bodily" up to heaven.
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We have to learn to translate the language of the Bible to modern way of speaking. The "Dead", in essenian tradition, are the unbelievers. What Jesus did to Lazarus was probably to give him the faith back. There is another part of the New Testament where Jesus says to a young man: "Come with me and let the dead bury their dead", which means: "Come with me and let the unbelievers bury their dead". I do not think that Jesus was actually an essenian but the usage of this word is.
We have to bear in mind that the word "miracle" is a bad translation for the Greek term for the miracles of Jesus. The Greek term means great deed, not miracle in our actual sense.
Now I get to the Resurrection itself. There are two kind of texts in the Bible referring to the Resurrection. Some of them follow historical rules, the other symbolic ones. The best example of a historical text is the apparition to the Magdalene, and it's actually believable for it is -in terms of Jewish tradition- politically incorrect: if there is way of not being believed in such a piece of news it is making a woman the only witness. Some other texts are clearly symbolic, for instance the disciples walking to Emaus that do not recognize Christ until parting the bread. That is Luke's typical way of writing stories.
The problem is that, when speaking about the Resurrection, we do not mean an Initiatic deed but actual resurrection. I handle three ideas:
1) The disciples really believed, with all their heart, that Jesus had come again to life after being crucified. It is obvious because all of them died for that idea, and they all were people of very different walks of life and background: some Greek-speaking, a taxman collaborationist to the Romans, fishermen, a zealot, one or two Jews apart from the Galileans... We are not speaking of a fistful of religious people, but ordinary people of different appreciations of reality.
2) To witness a miracle will not necessarily make you believe. Miracles, when they happen, leave the spectator more in confusion than in faith. Probably, if all what happened had been recorded with a videocam, watching it would not be a definite key to understand it.
3) The key point is: how were the apparitions of Jesus to the disciples after his death?. Maybe not physical but of any other kind. The Bible says that He ate with them. Don't think so, probably it aims to fight some early heresy, maybe docetism, which considered Christ just as appearance but not physical reality. I think it is reasonable to believe that something happened, as the 12 men who were in contact with it chose death not to betray it, but we have to forget about Hollywood scenes or traditional images, which must be thoroughly examined to find out the truth behind them.
And then the believer gets to this stalemate situation: you believe that something happened but you cannot know actually what. And then the ball is again in the faith's court...
Skiendhu wrote:
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None of which are any more likely than a virgin birth.
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The virginity of Mary has not been a dogma until 1850. Even the greatest theologist of the Roman Church ever, Saint Thomas Aquinas, was against this idea. Obviously the virginity of Mary is a vestige of the eastern religions and Greek mythology. We have to bear in mind that the Jews were a rather small community surrounded by the overwhelming Greek culture of the Eastern Empire (by the way, people think that Pilatus ran Jesus' trial in latin: wrong idea, it was in Greek. Even the soldiers who crucified Jesus probably only spoke Greek). The idea of making Jesus be born from a virgin was thought probably to talk to the Greek and believers in some eastern religions in their own symbolic language: Christ was born from a virgin, so it proves he is (a) God.
Skiendhu wrote:
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I'm surprised that Moses didn't get preferential treatment as he was such a great guy with a face to fire association with God.
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Er... well... By the time of Moses the idea of life everlasting had not appeared yet, so it had no sense to make him resurrect. It may sound so strange to us now, but the Jews in the time of the Exodus believed in God but once you had died you were absolutely finished. The saduceans, who only accepted th Five Books, also didn't believe in life everlasting (and were governing the Temple in the times of Jesus, which means that the idea of Judaism that we have -farisaic, actually- does not really fit to reality...)
Ancient Jews were not stupid. Just Christianism stems from a tradition further away from us than we think. We shouldn't be dope enough to read the Bible taking it in a modern occidental way. Transfiguration, Jesus turning water into wine, the Samaritan woman who had had five husbands... we have to look for the inner sense of those symbolic stories, not just try to think that those people were living in a constant drug party.
Sorry for the long answer. But you have to realise that if you mention this subjects I won't be able to prevent myself from becoming an utter pain in the ass. I warn you.
(Edited by Mozard)
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A.T.Smith
Master Mason
Posts: 1739
Registered: Jul 2006 |
Posted August 7th, 2007 05:56 PM IP
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Sorry for the long answer. But you have to realise that if you mention this subjects I won't be able to prevent myself from becoming an utter pain in the ass. I warn you.
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LMAO!!!
I wouldn't worry Mo, I'm pretty shure that was the intention.
(solid viewpoint by the way!)
Under the Shadow of Thy Wings
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Jo Frank
Master Mason
Posts: 571
Registered: Aug 2006 |
Posted August 7th, 2007 06:22 PM IP
Excellent reply, Mozard!
Oh, and you could never become a pain in anyones ass!!! - Go for it!
Jo.
W.Bro. Jo Frank. Prov. GR.
Lodge Sanctuary No. 14.
Sanctuary Mark Lodge (R.A.M.) No. 9. PM
Sanctuary R.A. Chapter No.21 PZ
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Dave Mavity
Super Moderator
Posts: 2371
Registered: Feb 2005 |
Posted August 7th, 2007 06:57 PM IP
Quote:
Mozard wrote:
I am Christian and I believe in Resurrection. |
Same here, although, being a heretic, I view it as an allegory of both the constant rejuvenation of the Life Force, as well as being a "death to the old self" metaphor, something like a legend we're familiar with.
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We have to learn to translate the language of the Bible to modern way of speaking. The "Dead", in essenian tradition, are the unbelievers. |
Yep.
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Christ was born from a virgin, so it proves he is (a) God. |
Didn't hurt, either, that Mithras of the Roman faith was as well.
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Er... well... By the time of Moses the idea of life everlasting had not appeared yet, so it had no sense to make him resurrect. It may sound so strange to us now, but the Jews in the time of the Exodus believed in God but once you had died you were absolutely finished. |
Sort of. The belief was that you lived eternally by the results and influences of your actions while in life and through your descendents. A slightly different take on "Karma," which is emphasized in the SJ SR Degrees.
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Ancient Jews were not stupid. Just Christianism stems from a tradition further away from us than we think. |
True, that. Not only a Hellenistic- influenced reform of Judaism, but borrowing heavily from older traditions later, particularly that of the killed and risen g-d.
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We shouldn't be dope enough to read the Bible taking it in a modern occidental way. |
Agreed.
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Sorry for the long answer. But you have to realise that if you mention this subjects I won't be able to prevent myself from becoming an utter pain in the ass. I warn you. |
Carry on, Bro.!
(Edited by Dave Mavity)
(Edited by Dave Mavity)
(Edited by Dave Mavity)
Dave Mavity
Academia Lodge #847 F&AM, Oakland, CA: Traditional Observance, baby.
Golden City Lodge #1 AF&AM, Golden, CO
Oakland, CA Valley A&ASR
Intra Nobis Regnum Iehova
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Mozard
Master Mason
Posts: 369
Registered: Aug 2006 |
Posted August 10th, 2007 08:35 AM IP
Dave Mavity wrote:
Quote:
Mozard wrote:
I am Christian and I believe in Resurrection.
Same here, although, being a heretic, I view it as an allegory of both the constant rejuvenation of the Life Force, as well as being a "death to the old self" metaphor, something like a legend we're familiar with.
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Doesn't anybody realise that this is the real beginning of the thread? This sentence helps to focus the actual debate: if we accept real resurrection, we accept life everlasting and supernatural world. If, on the contrary, we take it as a symbolic expression, we deny the other world and remain within the one we're in, stablishing this one as the only one.
Anybody wanna play now?
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A.T.Smith
Master Mason
Posts: 1739
Registered: Jul 2006 |
Posted August 10th, 2007 05:41 PM IP
Quote:
Mozard wrote:
if we accept real resurrection, we accept life everlasting and supernatural world. If, on the contrary, we take it as a symbolic expression, we deny the other world and remain within the one we're in, stablishing this one as the only one.
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I don't think that viewing the resurection as "symbolic" necesarily means that we deny an afterlife. Infact I know it doesn't.
That may be the case for some, but many of our beliefs (even within our own little discussion group here) would tend to disagree.
Under the Shadow of Thy Wings
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Mozard
Master Mason
Posts: 369
Registered: Aug 2006 |
Posted August 10th, 2007 05:56 PM IP
A.T. Smith wrote:
Quote:
I don't think that viewing the resurection as "symbolic" necesarily means that we deny an afterlife. Infact I know it doesn't.
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Yes, probaly you are right. You know, Christianism, at least as I conceive it -close to Roman Catolicism- is so absolutely based on the Resurrection that if Resurrection fails all the system collapses. Yes, there are other perspectives, but, for a Christian non-gnostic, without Jesus' Resurrection, the belief in afterlife is so weak... but that is only the catholic point of view, of course.
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A.T.Smith
Master Mason
Posts: 1739
Registered: Jul 2006 |
Posted August 10th, 2007 07:34 PM IP
Quote:
Mozard wrote:
... but that is only the catholic point of view, of course.
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Exactly, and I think that's the reason why the Roman Church has had such a problem with Freemasonry.
Masons do believe in God , and the afterlife, without necessarily subscribing to the phisical resurection of Jesus.
Of course, this firmly plants us in the realm of heresy.....but so be it.
Under the Shadow of Thy Wings
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Dave Mavity
Super Moderator
Posts: 2371
Registered: Feb 2005 |
Posted August 11th, 2007 12:50 AM IP
Quote:
Mozard wrote:
If, on the contrary, we take it as a symbolic expression, we deny the other world and remain within the one we're in, stablishing this one as the only one.
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No.
A symbolic expression doesn't weaken an idea, it strengthens it. It's a symbol of a reality.
Let's go to the other end of the Christian spectrum from Catholicism. The death and resurrection of Christ is a symbol of what happens to us individually, teaching that idea. Generally, mainstream Christians see it as a a historical occurence, making Christ a person who had to die to save everyone else. An esoteric Christian sees it as an allegory, teaching us that we are risen, after death, to a higher existence, with Christ as an exemplar.
Dave Mavity
Academia Lodge #847 F&AM, Oakland, CA: Traditional Observance, baby.
Golden City Lodge #1 AF&AM, Golden, CO
Oakland, CA Valley A&ASR
Intra Nobis Regnum Iehova
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Mozard
Master Mason
Posts: 369
Registered: Aug 2006 |
Posted August 11th, 2007 03:12 AM IP
Dave Mavity wrote:
Quote:
A symbolic expression doesn't weaken an idea, it strengthens it. It's a symbol of a reality. |
It can be valid for esoteric Christianism, but if you are close to Roman Catolicism, based essentially on Jesus' Resurrection, there's a huge difference between taking it symbolic or real. Rome tries to demonstrate that there is an afterlife holding the Resurrection as historical fact.
Concerning esoteric Christianism, I really have my doubts that it is the true nature of Jesus' teachings. After having read all gospels (official and apocryph, pharisaic and gnostic) and having been submerged in that subjetc for more time than it's good for brain health, I tend to see it -with all respect for other opinions- as a possible distortion of original contents.
A.T. Smith wrote:
Quote:
Of course, this firmly plants us in the realm of heresy.....but so be it. |
You communist! Now seriously, the only dogma that should be accepted when looking for the meaning of existence is absolute honesty with oneself and always face the truth even if it is demolishing your system of beliefs.
(Edited by Mozard)
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Dave Mavity
Super Moderator
Posts: 2371
Registered: Feb 2005 |
Posted August 12th, 2007 12:23 AM IP
Quote:
Mozard wrote:
It can be valid for esoteric Christianism, but if you are close to Roman Catolicism, based essentially on Jesus' Resurrection, there's a huge difference between taking it symbolic or real. Rome tries to demonstrate that there is an afterlife holding the Resurrection as historical fact. |
Right. The key here is in understanding the the Roman Church's opinion is not the only opinion in Christendom.
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Concerning esoteric Christianism, I really have my doubts that it is the true nature of Jesus' teachings. After having read all gospels (official and apocryph, pharisaic and gnostic) and having been submerged in that subjetc for more time than it's good for brain health, I tend to see it -with all respect for other opinions- as a possible distortion of original contents. |
Ah, but here's the thing: after reading all the same Gospels, I've come to the opposite opinion, and see the Church's take as a distortion.
As Masons, is this something we can discuss, or does the prohibition against discussing religion prohibit rational discourse, perhaps because there can be no reasoned debate between Brothers who believe so differently? Hell, even within the same faith? Can there be rational discourse on religious faith?
Dave Mavity
Academia Lodge #847 F&AM, Oakland, CA: Traditional Observance, baby.
Golden City Lodge #1 AF&AM, Golden, CO
Oakland, CA Valley A&ASR
Intra Nobis Regnum Iehova
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Mozard
Master Mason
Posts: 369
Registered: Aug 2006 |
Posted August 12th, 2007 02:12 AM IP
Dave Mavity wrote:
Quote:
As Masons, is this something we can discuss, or does the prohibition against discussing religion prohibit rational discourse, perhaps because there can be no reasoned debate between Brothers who believe so differently? |
We have a book, the Bible, that has been probably the most important through history, and which is written on a extremely particular way. Trying to understand it is, more that a right... almost a must. Anyway it is true that we might be now on the edge of religious discussion within Freemasonry. I don't want to put the foot in it, so I would like to count with your opinions about this before starting. If I count with your consensus I actually don't mind firing first about the lecture of Jesus' teachings...
(Edited by Mozard)
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S. T. Lehane
Master Mason
Posts: 1568
Registered: Oct 2006 |
Posted August 14th, 2007 12:00 PM IP
Quote:
Dave Mavity wrote:
Can there be rational discourse on religious faith?
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I think there can be rational discourse on faith, but it's very difficult.
Best of luck with that guys!
I find it fascinating that the same book contains within it, two entirely different messages or readings depending on your point of view, (and I like hearing and reading different points of view on this topic).
My humble opinion is that both the exoteric and esoteric readings of the New Testament are valid and enlightening.
(Edited by S. T. Lehane)
Fraternally!
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A.T.Smith
Master Mason
Posts: 1739
Registered: Jul 2006 |
Posted August 14th, 2007 05:17 PM IP
Quote:
S. T. Lehane wrote:
My humble opinion is that both the exoteric and esoteric readings of the New Testament are valid and enlightening.
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For shure, I think an opinion that the Bible is entirely symbolic, would be just as in-accurate as that which says it's entirely factual.
Little bit from column A, little from coulmn B IMO, and both worthy of study.
Under the Shadow of Thy Wings
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pfeifco
Master Mason
Posts: 973
Registered: Apr 2007 |
Posted October 10th, 2007 10:12 AM IP
Check out this documentary (approx 2hrs):
Zeitgeist Movie
Part I has an interesting take on the Death and Resurrection and the virgin birth etc.
The rest I have not decided
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russellholland
Master Mason
Posts: 996
Registered: Feb 2005 |
Posted October 10th, 2007 06:02 PM IP
>physical resurrection, which, of course, is also codswallop
I suggest there are many accounts in the ancient texts of resurrection of various sorts.
In the epic of Gilgamesh I seem to recall an account of a dead god who had to be washed 50 times with Water of Life before he was resusitated
You may also wish to consider the 16 Crucified World Saviours http://www.infidels.org/library/his...rsey_graves/16/
And even more recently there are many accounts of the indeterminancy of death:
- Resuscitation of the clinically dead
- Dead ringers
- the holding of the Wake
- zombies (perhaps)
- and the expression "turn over in the grave"
And I recall an account of a Victorian graveyard being moved and around 10% having fingernail scratches on the underside of the coffin lid. (I still have mild claustrophobia from that)
For myself I think cremation is the best way of avoiding inconvenient resurrection
Of course one might argue that it is just a problem with experts being unable to determine death. But where is the proof that death has not occurred and then been reversed?
Perhaps it is a matter of faith
Cheers
Russell
Russell Holland
Caboolture 266
UGLQ
Australia
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S. T. Lehane
Master Mason
Posts: 1568
Registered: Oct 2006 |
Posted October 11th, 2007 08:01 AM IP
Quote:
russellholland wrote:
>physical resurrection, which, of course, is also codswallop
...
And even more recently there are many accounts of the indeterminancy of death:
- Resuscitation of the clinically dead
- Dead ringers
- the holding of the Wake
- zombies (perhaps)
- and the expression "turn over in the grave"
...
Of course one might argue that it is just a problem with experts being unable to determine death. But where is the proof that death has not occurred and then been reversed?
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Ok, you had to go and bring up zombies, didn't you?
Well, here goes... There is actually an interesting scientific explanation for this phenomenon.
In the early 1980s, Harvard ethnobotanist Wade Davis was sent to Haiti by a pharmaceutical company to investigate zombification and find a sample of the "zombie drug" for potential medical use as an anesthesia or "even as a means of inducing suspended animation for astronauts on long space flights." (biology-online... see link below).
Davis wrote a book about his experiences called "The Serpent and the Rainbow" which was turned into a Wes Craven horror film very loosely based on the book, (with lots of Hollywood pizzazz added).
To make a long story short, Davis concluded that the "zombie drug" was a drug called tetrodotoxin, (the same toxin found in puffer fish), which can induce a near-death coma where the victim's breathing and heartbeat slow down to an almost undetectable level, and their blood pressure and body temperature drop to the point where any medical doctor would assume that the victim is dead.
More often than not, tetrodotoxin is lethal, but if the "zombie master" can get just the right dosage, the victim will be in a near-death coma until the effects of the drug wear off, and then, "miraculously," come back to life.
Now, in case you think I'm nuts, I've posted some references below for anybody interested in more information:
"Patients with severe toxicity may have deep coma, fixed nonreactive pupils, apnea, and loss of all brain stem reflexes... Cardiac rhythm disturbances, especially bradycardia, atrioventricular (AV)–nodal block, and bundle-branch block, can be life threatening."
From:
http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic576.htm
This is an excellent essay on the topic:
http://www.biology-online.org/artic...an_walking.html
http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/mo...ts/s1260445.htm
http://webster.edu/~corbetre/philos...bett-davis.html
Also, if you google "Clairvius Narcisse" (the zombie that sparked Wade Davis's investigations), you'll find lots of interesting info:
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q...le+Search&meta=
"WEX has now established itself as a therapeutic-based pharmaceutical company with a platform of numerous potential applications, derived from the Company's research into Tetrodotoxin."
http://www.wextech.ca/corporate/history.htm
One more:
http://groups.msn.com/TheAlchemists...mbiepoison.msnw
PS: I don't mean to suggest that Christ was zombified, just that under certain extraordinary circumstances, resurrection may not be entirely "codswallop..."
(Edited by S. T. Lehane)
Fraternally!
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russellholland
Master Mason
Posts: 996
Registered: Feb 2005 |
Posted October 11th, 2007 06:12 PM IP
>you had to go and bring up zombies, didn't you?
I did say "perhaps"
The reason I am unsure is that while the wrongdoer is punished by being made a zombie using natural drugs, there is a distinct loss of will and intelligence that occurs in the process
Hence some spiritual and psychological parts may have been permanently separated from the physical body.
The state therefore may be a spiritual but not a physical death
I would like to see a photo of a real zombie so that I could detect what parts were missing. Any links known?
Cheers
Russell
Russell Holland
Caboolture 266
UGLQ
Australia
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S. T. Lehane
Master Mason
Posts: 1568
Registered: Oct 2006 |
Posted October 11th, 2007 08:39 PM IP
Quote:
russellholland wrote:
>The reason I am unsure is that while the wrongdoer is punished by being made a zombie using natural drugs, there is a distinct loss of will and intelligence that occurs in the process
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You're right! In my last post, I didn't really get into the negative effects of zombification. Those "loss of will and intelligence" phenomenon are described and explained very well in the links I provided.
The Zombie is not a "wrong-doer." He is the unfortunate victim of a Dokor, (Doctor). Remember Papa Doc and Baby Doc? Where do you think they got that title?
There is a lot more information in those links about how they revive a zombie and control it thereafter -- drugging it out of it's mind to be obedient and inducing amnesia... I was just talking about TXT by itself, (which I thought was an interesting enough topic).
Davis was only looking for a drug that brought people into a coma for medicinal reasons.... He tried to avoid reporting on the other drugs which made people obedient, and gave them amnesia -- and basically made them obedient automatonic zombies.
Those include a bunch of nasty drugs like scopolamine, which is sold as a recreational drug in Amsterdam today!
I've seen people on it, and after their first dose, they're never quite "the same."
Scopolamine is the drug on certain toads' skin, most commonly found in the southern U.S. It is the basis of "toad licking."
Seriously... People lick these toads to get high...
It's very sad.
(Edited by S. T. Lehane)
Fraternally!
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skiendhu
Super Moderator
Posts: 2627
Registered: Dec 2004 |
Posted October 11th, 2007 09:02 PM IP
Quote:
russellholland wrote:
I would like to see a photo of a real zombie so that I could detect what parts were missing. Any links known?
Cheers
Russell
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You can sometimes see one or two in lodge, particularly during the business part of the meeting.
Practical experience is the best teacher
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S. T. Lehane
Master Mason
Posts: 1568
Registered: Oct 2006 |
Posted October 11th, 2007 09:36 PM IP
There are photos of Clairvius Narcisse on Google images. (It's a well-documented case).
Here are your pictures of zombies (ie. people who survived a tetrodotoxin-induced comma)... Sorry, but they still look human.
http://images.google.ca/images?hl=e...F-8&sa=N&tab=wi
Fraternally!
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pfeifco
Master Mason
Posts: 973
Registered: Apr 2007 |
Posted October 12th, 2007 12:38 AM IP
I still think "Shaun of the Dead" is funny.
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A.T.Smith
Master Mason
Posts: 1739
Registered: Jul 2006 |
Posted October 13th, 2007 12:25 AM IP
Quote:
pfeifco wrote:
I still think "Shaun of the Dead" is funny.
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Agreed.
Under the Shadow of Thy Wings
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Mozard
Master Mason
Posts: 369
Registered: Aug 2006 |
Posted October 13th, 2007 03:26 AM IP
I don't think a zombie or someone coming out of a coma after a crucifixion could make others risk their life for the idea of resurrection. I don't think either that Roman legionaries where so incompetent that they weren't able to kill that mad galilean. As I said above, if eleven people of different cultural background and walks of life took so many risks and paid that faith with their own lives, whatever happened after the crucifixion or before... had to be solid and reasonable enough.
I say also or before... because there is a possibility we haven't considered yet: the inconditional belief in life after death could have sprang up in the mind of the apostles due to the charismatic personality of Jesus, and the episode of the resurrection then would be just a symbolic one. This idea could be reinforced by the fact that resurrection scarcely appears in Saint Paul's letters. Also its presence in the basic structure of the Gospels is widely considered to have appeared in Q3, the latest layer of that imaginary -but useful to take as an actual paper- document Q.
There is something against this: Saint John's Gospel. Joanic communities were probably of initiatic nature, and for sure their members had a higher cultural level than the rest of the population. Simbolism was no doubt familiar to them, and so it appears in their gospel. And despite this, Saint John's Gospel not only is focused just on the Resurrection, but it also describes it on the most physical way of the four gospels. It is like they forgot about simbolism in the moment supposed to be the key to understand everything...
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Dave Mavity
Super Moderator
Posts: 2371
Registered: Feb 2005 |
Posted October 13th, 2007 08:53 PM IP
Quote:
Mozard wrote:
I say also or before... because there is a possibility we haven't considered yet: the inconditional belief in life after death could have sprang up in the mind of the apostles due to the charismatic personality of Jesus, and the episode of the resurrection then would be just a symbolic one. This idea could be reinforced by the fact that resurrection scarcely appears in Saint Paul's letters.
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Damn, Bro......I think we agree.
Dave Mavity
Academia Lodge #847 F&AM, Oakland, CA: Traditional Observance, baby.
Golden City Lodge #1 AF&AM, Golden, CO
Oakland, CA Valley A&ASR
Intra Nobis Regnum Iehova
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Dave Mavity
Super Moderator
Posts: 2371
Registered: Feb 2005 |
Posted October 13th, 2007 08:54 PM IP
Quote:
pfeifco wrote:
I still think "Shaun of the Dead" is funny.
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Great flick.
Dave Mavity
Academia Lodge #847 F&AM, Oakland, CA: Traditional Observance, baby.
Golden City Lodge #1 AF&AM, Golden, CO
Oakland, CA Valley A&ASR
Intra Nobis Regnum Iehova
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Negredo
Unregistered
Posts:
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Posted October 24th, 2007 02:45 AM IP
This is one of the most level-headed and interesting discussions on Christic philosophy that I've read in a long time. Keep going, please!!
I have finally begun to reconcile my cultural upbringing and my spiritual journey and find my original distancing from Christianity was a part of my journey. Happily I find peace in stripping my fears and prejudices from the innocent Christ. His life, passion, death and resurrection represent, for me, an "event" that while symbolic, is indeed a living force that transcends the aether. To some, this is heresy, but I must embrace my so-called heresy because it is how I come to know the Christ as the force of love that manifested on this earth for a short time as Jesus.
Then again, does it really matter if Jesus lived or not? Is not the power that deems one anointed with the power and the Word what really matters? It truly lives in this world and the next. Is not the message of Jesus, speaking as the Christ, the most important? Is not love--not just His--but collective Love, the most important and the most transcendent?
Perhaps the concept God and Christianity is determined by the sum total of responses to the teachings of both entities, and not just one strand of truth.
Indeed, this would force those that would narrow the path to finally admit that only by this way could the path of the Christ be truly one of love for all Mankind--not just the select who claim to preserve his heritage. It must be this if it is to claim that it is the religion of love.
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mikeh935
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Posted April 1st, 2008 10:21 AM IP
I find it very difficult to swallow The virgin Birth, Cadavers jumping around on sunday mornings aka resurrection, come on lads get real . We have been fed a lie for 2000 years now and the Inquisition has been in place to make sure that people like me dont go around telling people like you my opinions.If thats being a heretic then I'm guilty as charged. But those are only my opinions. Hope I hav'nt stood on too many corns
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Freemason Discussion Group :: Freemasonry :: Religions And The Craft :: Christ's death and resurrection
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